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Post by shoey109 on Feb 15, 2011 23:24:24 GMT -5
I can see a 1750 point King tiger company park at the edge of the minefields under the cover of smoke by our rocket batteries. Kill every thing in sight. Then have our engineers come up and clear the minefields. Keep the area smoked as we open the hole. Then we come in like a bad dream. I think the Germans need to be the attackers. The allied army can have 1500 points.
Will
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Post by jeremy3play on Feb 15, 2011 23:34:33 GMT -5
I'm not seeing where it says we have 90 points each for fortifications. Do we in fact have 90 points each for a total of 270?
As I was reading through the "Big Push" mission tonight, both sides were equal in points. That is the balance with fortifications and preliminary bombardments.
We will lose men/vehicles/guns during the preliminary. In my current 1500pt. set up, 33 bases count as regular infantry bases (3+save), 12 bases count as gun teams (5+save) and 3 vehicles. Since preliminary bombardment hits on a 4+, I'll have 16.5 (we'll round down to 16) saves at 3+ and 6 at 5+. I should make 2/3 of the +3 saves and fail 2/3 of the gun saves. So I will lose 5.28 bases (5 rounded down) of infantry bases, 4 bases of gun teams and let's say for the vehicles they were off table.
Based on the these numbers, I would be down 275 points. So now we are looking at a 1750 vs. 1225 with the allies still attacking first and the Germans are pinned. Also, take into consideration that we will have 25% of those remaining 1225 points off the table and unable to help until at least turn 3. The points total is based on my force. However, as you can see I have a large number of infantry. If a German even tried to have an armored list, he'd have a much, much higher casualty rate.
As for the scattered reserves, that just penalizes us further. We already have delayed reserves. So we will have 1 die on turn 3, 2 on turn 4 and so forth. So we have a 1/3 chance of getting something in. We will it to come in where we want it. Not some random location.
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Post by kv1e on Feb 16, 2011 0:17:02 GMT -5
I'm not seeing where it says we have 90 points each for fortifications. Do we in fact have 90 points each for a total of 270? As I was reading through the "Big Push" mission tonight, both sides were equal in points. That is the balance with fortifications and preliminary bombardments. We will lose men/vehicles/guns during the preliminary. In my current 1500pt. set up, 33 bases count as regular infantry bases (3+save), 12 bases count as gun teams (5+save) and 3 vehicles. Since preliminary bombardment hits on a 4+, I'll have 16.5 (we'll round down to 16) saves at 3+ and 6 at 5+. I should make 2/3 of the +3 saves and fail 2/3 of the gun saves. So I will lose 5.28 bases (5 rounded down) of infantry bases, 4 bases of gun teams and let's say for the vehicles they were off table. Based on the these numbers, I would be down 275 points. So now we are looking at a 1750 vs. 1225 with the allies still attacking first and the Germans are pinned. The point total is based on my force. However, as you can see I have a large number of infantry. If a German even tried to have an armored list, he'd have a much, much higher casualty rate. I could be wrong about 90 points each this what new steve wrote in an earlyer post "he will actually have 90 points of fortifications. Don't forget to read the email i sent you and the note in the post that out lines the dimensions of the board" the way he phrased it sounds like will personaly got 90 points but he may have meant the defenders. I have already sent him an E-mail asking him to clarafy. Your luck on the Peliminary bombardement when you and Will played Mike and New steve was better than average. maybe it will be worse this time, maybe better,and Maybe my crocodiles will be heading for you and it won't matter. The point is that the defender in this scenario has not had a clear disadvantage so far in playing it and this is with less points In fact I believe that the defender has the advantage, so I Will I play this scenario as the defender? maybe I have spent a month thinking about being the attacker so I want to think about for a while |
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Post by kv1e on Feb 16, 2011 0:28:13 GMT -5
I can see a 1750 point King tiger company park at the edge of the minefields under the cover of smoke by our rocket batteries. Kill every thing in sight. Then have our engineers come up and clear the minefields. Keep the area smoked as we open the hole. Then we come in like a bad dream. I think the Germans need to be the attackers. The allied army can have 1500 points. Will and I can see me telling you that you can not smoke your own units and/or a terrain feature. you can only smoke enemy units. I then see your pioneers dieing like the dogs they are and maybe your King Tigers too. You had better stick to Rocket Launcher Trivia   |
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Post by Easy86 on Feb 16, 2011 7:20:05 GMT -5
Temis, the rules are 90 points for every 6 feet of table edge or 60 points for every 4 feet of table edge plus the basic fortifications for every infantry team in the army (barbed wire and trench lines). which means only 90 points for the entire table. but with all of that infantry that is a lot more trenches and barbed wire. I posted this last night, it may have gotten lost in the barrage. |
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Post by Easy86 on Feb 16, 2011 8:08:28 GMT -5
I understand the concerns, I am not ignoring them ha ha. Vintage Steve and I are discussing the issue.
What other comments do you have about the rest of the scenario? Total War Rules? The objectives point assigment and scoring? The board size?
keep 'em coming.
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Post by shoey109 on Feb 16, 2011 9:10:30 GMT -5
I can see a 1750 point King tiger company park at the edge of the minefields under the cover of smoke by our rocket batteries. Kill every thing in sight. Then have our engineers come up and clear the minefields. Keep the area smoked as we open the hole. Then we come in like a bad dream. I think the Germans need to be the attackers. The allied army can have 1500 points. Will and I can see me telling you that you can not smoke your own units and/or a terrain feature. you can only smoke enemy units. I then see your pioneers dieing like the dogs they are and maybe your King Tigers too. You had better stick to Rocket Launcher Trivia That is a no brainier there Temis. I would smoke your front line troops. I think the large template of smoke would do very well covering a large stretch of the front lines. I would bring allot of templates of smoke to cover my assault on the trenches. Will |
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Post by kv1e on Feb 16, 2011 10:11:35 GMT -5
and I can see me telling you that you can not smoke your own units and/or a terrain feature. you can only smoke enemy units. I then see your pioneers dieing like the dogs they are and maybe your King Tigers too. You had better stick to Rocket Launcher Trivia That is a no brainier there Temis. I would smoke your front line troops. I think the large template of smoke would do very well covering a large stretch of the front lines. I would bring allot of templates of smoke to cover my assault on the trenches. Will Ah but I thought that you were going to kill everything in sight with your tigers before you lay your smoke, if you do that you will be up the creek without the paddle. Further I have a somewhat different philosaphy about laying fortifications that most other players you would be in for an unpleasant surprize. ;D |
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Post by Easy86 on Feb 16, 2011 10:46:19 GMT -5
Ok you two have made your point. It may be a different game if we switched sides. But that isn't the issue.
Old Steve and I are working on taking care of your other comments. I have also put it on the FoW forums to get some additional input.
Does any one have any comments about the rest of the scenario? Total War Rules? The objectives point assigment and scoring? The board size?
Please continue to comment on the scenario itself so that we can make the proper adjustments so that we can all have fun.
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Post by jeremy3play on Feb 16, 2011 11:13:36 GMT -5
Temis, the rules are 90 points for every 6 feet of table edge or 60 points for every 4 feet of table edge plus the basic fortifications for every infantry team in the army (barbed wire and trench lines). which means only 90 points for the entire table. but with all of that infantry that is a lot more trenches and barbed wire. I posted this last night, it may have gotten lost in the barrage. So by my understandig of this post we have 90 points total and the added barbed wire and trenches. Now, the original mission called for 90 as well or was it a much smaller number? The reason I ask this is because you've doubled the table size, but if you haven't double the points it will create a very thin barrier for the attacker to break through. As far as table size, scoring and total war rules those work well for both sides. Having points for the objectives is also good, but will you count the points at the end of the game or will you count at the end of each turn and keep a running tally? |
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Post by Easy86 on Feb 16, 2011 11:58:52 GMT -5
Yes 90 is what the original scenario called for. The points are based on table Width and not on table depth. That is how steve and I interperated the rules.
Playing our scenarios (on a 4 foot wide by 6 foot deep) it was shown that the 60 points was a lot of fortifications. In this scenario, With 2 full companies of infantry, and an armor company (but could be another infantry company) with infanty supplement could make for a lot more fortifications. That is why we decided to stay with 90 points of fortifications. What were your thoughts jeremy?
Scoring. Yes the objectives will be scored at the end of the game. Victory points will be scored and tallied during every turn for the destruction of platoons and for when you take out the higher command team. This seemed to make the scoring balanced for both sides. Those were our thoughts on the matter at least.
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Post by jeremy3play on Feb 16, 2011 12:39:25 GMT -5
Let's do a quick mock up on Friday of the table layout. I think we are on the same page now, but I just want to make sure.
60 points might've seemed like a lot, but we all know just how effective barbed wire really is. In this scenario we'll have 3 allied companies. We'll be facing quite a few tanks I'm assuming which will rip through any and all barbed wire. I'm also assuming that we'll have most infantry stands which will again...give us barbed wire for your tanks to drive over. We need the points to buy fortifications that actually have a chance of slowing/stoping the attack.
However, let's discuss it on Friday with the tables out. It will be easier for all with visuals.
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Post by Easy86 on Feb 16, 2011 13:09:03 GMT -5
Let's do a quick mock up on Friday of the table layout. I think we are on the same page now, but I just want to make sure. We need the points to buy fortifications that actually have a chance of slowing/stoping the attack. However, let's discuss it on Friday with the tables out. It will be easier for all with visuals. I agree, But I feel that I have to mention that those points can buy you minefields and tank traps which slow everyone down. not to mention whatever evil things you decide to put in play with your pioneers YIKES!!!  But your deployment of fortifications is between you and your team mates. That being said. Lets do what you suggested so we can all see what this may look like before we make any more hard decisions. |
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Post by FaithandFire on Feb 16, 2011 13:23:46 GMT -5
Registering in a bit late here but maybe that is good.
Each side seems to think it is boned so maybe it is a good scenario!
The original intent was to play THE BIG PUSH just as it is in the rulebook but 3 on 3 instead of 1 on 1 with a bigger table. Our tweaks have come in response to comments from our games this month and over Christmas break. Folks tended to think it was unbalanced aginst the Allies at 1750 vs 1750 so we tweaked the Axis points.
We could simply revert back to the Big Push scenario and run that. Do the allied cooperation thing from Total War. I do like the addition of objectives and the uncertainty about the value the objective has to the opponent. No one has commented on this so far.
So - is there a preference for just playing a big sized BIG PUSH?? If so, do we just use the victory conditions from that or do we go with our tweak?
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Post by Easy86 on Feb 16, 2011 13:57:37 GMT -5
I think the biggest objection was the reduction in points. and the rest of the adjustments seemed fair. So my first impression would be to bring the points back up to 1750 and leave the rest. That would make it "The Big push" with some tweaks that only come from the flavor of the scenario.
Steve and others.... Thoughts?
I am looking forward to a challenge and a hard fight. But again, like jeremy said, we should discuss this in person on friday with a quick look up at a mock table set up before we make any hard decisions.
Comments?
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But your deployment of fortifications is between you and your team mates.