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Post by greenmtvince on Jul 3, 2012 11:52:56 GMT -5
Oh, I was thinking we could forgo the usual combat patrol limitations. I'm not too particularly worried about balance if it helps us learn the new rules, so bring a Land Raider or a 4 wound 2+ save psychic character or whatever. If one of us gets tabled in turn 3, we can just get more games in with different lists. It's only 500 points.  |
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Post by jeremyholiday on Jul 3, 2012 14:01:29 GMT -5
enh... Chris, you may end up being right in the end, but I think the argument that the expanded FOC will make Tyranids too powerful is not very convincing. If the new rules make them more competitive, then that is a plus in my book.
Spam is often in the eye of the beholder.
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Post by jeremyholiday on Jul 3, 2012 14:02:11 GMT -5
re: Vinnie - Sounds cool, I will mix up a few batches...
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Post by Sterling Archer on Jul 3, 2012 15:39:58 GMT -5
Jeremy, he was using that as an example. Imagine space wolves with 6 long fang units. Necrobs with 4 lords and 6 heavys. Blood angels with 6 elite choices, or 4 hq?(is this allowed, no rulebook yet)
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Post by ross on Jul 3, 2012 16:14:07 GMT -5
It is! space wolves could have 8 thunder lords and 6 long fang squads
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Post by jeremyholiday on Jul 3, 2012 20:51:31 GMT -5
Poofy, Chris - I see what you are getting at, I guess I just don't have a problem with it. I say again, if they can take 6 heavies, so can you... or 6 elites, etc.
I think that the FOC covered up some under lying problems about points that the new FOC exposes. Re: Space Wolves - Long Fangs are WAY underpriced for what you get in comparison to other choices in other codices, the old FOC just limited that problem. The real problem is underpriced long fangs, not the FOC, to my mind.
I also have wanted to make a list that has 6 dreadnoughts in it without taking a master of the forge... there are a number of lists that I had been kicking around that are now possible.
Poofy - Thought you would be happy about the chance to take some more Blood Angels elites...
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Post by neb on Jul 3, 2012 22:47:33 GMT -5
I'm with Jeremy on this one, I don't quite see the difference between say, three hammerheads on one side 3and liths on the other vs 6 on one side, 6 on the other. If both people can build their list by the same rules, what more imbalance does it cause in comparison to what there already is? Obciously if one player takes advantage of this and another does not, its most likely going to be insane, but doesn't that fall on the player who decided not to take that opportunity instead of the rules?
I don't like the idea of facing that many longfangs either, but its not so bad when there are twice as many priority targets as usual, it should balance out.
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Post by Sterling Archer on Jul 4, 2012 5:25:20 GMT -5
The problem is that not all choices across the codex's are equal, as was pointed out. Do you guys really want to face 18 vendettas?
6 Long fang units cost 840pts. For 30 missiles. Think about that for a second. Who else other then guard can put out that much fire power for that point cost? How about dark eldar, 6 trueborn with splinter cannons for 336pts. Thats 72 poisoned shots a turn. Or 6 ravagers- 630pts for 18 dark lance shots all on fast skimmers. Or how about a ba list with sanquior,Mephiston, Dante, and Astoroth, or 6 furioso dreads, or 6 storm ravens. Let's look at guard, 600 bodies just in the troop choices! Do you see what I'm saying, it unbalances the game for tournie play because it allows alot of spamming that was otherwise hard to do because of the limit in choices. The really broken ones are the ones where the unit you are spamming are super cheap, like long fangs, Guard, and some dark eldar stuff.
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Post by Sterling Archer on Jul 4, 2012 5:26:24 GMT -5
Or six squads of wraiths. Who the QUEEN-MOTHER OF DIRTY WORDS wants to face that?
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Post by Sterling Archer on Jul 4, 2012 5:32:06 GMT -5
So what im trying to say, and i think the others that agree with me are trying to say, is that yes all the codex's have at least one unit/thing that they would love to have 6 of, but only a few codex's can actually have that many of one or two units and still have a viable list for tournament play, that would be guard, Space Wolves, and necrons for the most part. Dark Eldar to a lesser extent too. What it pritty much means is that most higher point tournaments will be at 1999pts. Which mostly we only do 1850 anyways.
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Post by ross on Jul 4, 2012 6:13:57 GMT -5
To be honest I think most of our games should be at 1999 now. I have been finding that as I try to design lists 1999 seems to be the point value where I can really make the perfect list
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Post by jeremy3play on Jul 4, 2012 14:40:15 GMT -5
Part of making lists has been and always will be knowing what to keep and what to cut. Increasing the point total from 1850 to 1999 seems like a cop out. It's the same in any game system. People want to bring more toys, meanwhile they should learn to use what they have more effectively. Personally, I prefer games from 1500-1850 as you must think and plan your list carefully.
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Post by ross on Jul 4, 2012 15:02:04 GMT -5
Trust me, at 1999 I am cutting plenty of things - 2500 was the over the top point limit. the addition of allies means you are really making a 1500 point list with a 500 point list tagging along so your argument about not having to cut things from your list is not quite accurate. what's that you say? I don't have to have an ally? I'm pretty sure the chance to have my own demon prince is too good to give up
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Post by jeremy3play on Jul 4, 2012 17:01:29 GMT -5
You don't need to take an ally list, you want to take it. Quite the difference really.
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Post by ross on Jul 4, 2012 17:35:53 GMT -5
Wants are childish, this is a need.
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