There is only razorspam...

[droofus]

Found these video battle reports on Black Matt's blog. They're of a game that took place last weekend at the Battle For Salvation Tournament. Before I go any further I should say that I had the honor of playing Black Matt in the 'Ard Boyz semifinals last year. He is a really cool guy and a gifted painter to boot. The guy he's playing is Stelek. WARNING there is copious amounts of profanity involved.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJrBxzwWwhg&feature=player_embedded

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dYDD891yw4&feature=player_embedded

First, is anyone else extremely bummed about what this games says about the state of the meta-game? It makes me fear for our hobby when I see two nearly identical mech and reserve-based lists playing a stand-off game. Note that in the course of the game maybe a 1/3rd of each army actually comes within 24" of each other (the T-Wolf Squads and the Wolf Scouts). The rest of their armies just sat back at 36" and 48" and shot with lascannon and missile launcher. What's more scary is that these two were paired up because they had beat everyone else they played. There is no denying that such lists are dominant.

The E-geniuses will call this tactical play, and deride orks, nids and other cc-armies mindless CC spam. However, I ask you, is there really THAT much more tactical ability involved with plopping 8 lascannons and 15 missile launchers down on the table? Is there that much more tactical ability to auto-reserving all your vehicles if your opponent happens to get first turn?

Secondly, is anyone else bothered by the fact that the Space Wolves have become THE army for such a conservative play style? I'm not bothered with IG playing like this - that's what they're supposed to do! But I remember the time that wolves were balls to the wall aggressive like orks. But I guess these days space wolves are all long fangs, razorbacks and wolf scouts. They've become IG Wolves. As an aside, kudos to Ross for actually playing 'em like he's got a pair.

Finally, I'm kinda bummed about how they acted towards each other. It's sad when the most interesting part of the game is how the players argued. This game was rife with instances of one guy calling the other out on a rule and the other getting really defensive about it. I also saw at least one instance of selective rules memory (applying a rule zealously to your opponent but ignoring it when it would effect). They tried to play it off like it was all good-natured, but I seriously doubt that. It certainly didn't seem like a fun game.

Anyway, rant over. What do you think about this battle? Is this the future of "competitive" 40k? Two razorspam lists shooting at each other across the table while the two players snipe and bicker? Or am I overreacting?

EDIT: I should also say for any new or prospective players, that this is NOT something that takes place at tripleplay. We are much nicer and our lists are much cooler than this ;D

[phoenix]

I do think 40K should go the direction of killzone. Squad based combat, people aren't hiding off the board, Vehicles are extremely rare and the few that do show up are insanely tough.

I want tactical movement and interesting situations. The current game, sadly, has lost my interest, most of the time.

It does not help that I don't have a very strong army and haven't had enough time to play and get experience, but still.

[doctorclockwork]

As far as how they are talking to each other, I get the impression that they know each other and it's just friendly ribbing. But still, they do both come off as big fat poo poo heads in general.

Edit: Until the second part, where Stelek gets pissy that the other player asks which razorback is firing...

[doctorclockwork]

What is Stelek's standing/significance in the American 40k community exactly? I see his name mentioned from time to time, but I have no idea what his deal is.

[blodgetter]

I can see alot of what you were talking about, and I have too agree that the lists are seriously unfluffy IMHO, though so many lists are ( or have too be if they want too be competative ) but unfortunately that is the way gw is working things now. Swarms are the way too go for cc armies, but laying down enough templates destroys them. So giving (any) marine army template lobbers (see rocket launchers etc) in their troops means bur bye swarms from range. It doesn't make sense by fluff, but it works. And clearly is more effective then netting head too head on the field (which they retain the ability too do respectably) even though the codex has enough options too supper them being an effective cc army.

Now I grant, as you, that some armies have too use this tactic too be anywhere near effective (Tau, Eldar, most Dark Eldar ATM, and most IG) but it (again Imho) is very un-marine like. I will however remain hopefully that as the other codecs triccle out that GW will achieve some sort of long overdue equilibrium.

[droofus]

That's true Mark. The best way to get rid of hordes is templates of all shapes and sizes.

However, if you notice, all these razobacks have las-plas. This is actually an anti-mech list that can simply function as anti-horde when the need arises. If it's built to beat any army, I'd say that army is IG.

Swarm may seem popular in our local metagame, but it is actually waning in popularity on the national level.

[ross]

I hope I never meet Stelek in a game. It looked so tedious and the fun just drained from the game. I have been reading a lot of games by Mercer on dakka with a BA razorspam and I think BAs make a much better razor spam list because they can get more out of the small squads with the sanguinary priests. I just don't understand. The razorspam's worst nightmare is chuck's list of no nobz and 200 boys rushing down the field. There's just no way that the las-plas can put out enough dakka to hurt the boyz enough to be able to handle them with the small squads. Or the the all infantry guard list that sits back and has the 3 lascannon teams attached to the 40 man squad and just snipes the razors one by one. Or my list where they have to shoot at my t-wolves and before they know it bjorn is in there face and they have nothing that can stop him in CC. any more thoughts on the matter gents?

Edit: I would like to see what their lists were too, I got an idea but it was not printed out.

[blodgetter]

Just to venture one of my many opinions, I think if they were to get rid of the versitility of rocket launchers then lists like this would be less problematic. It the ability of the launchers to be anti tank AND anti swarm that make this list as nasty as it is. At least it seems like it too me. I know lascannon spam used too be extreamly popular in general, but it was always massacared by swarms. Which made a fair enough trade off. Sacreficing 1 strength off your shot, for the versitility, ability too have alot in a squad and (correct me if I'm mistaken) a lower point cost per weapon is easily (again imho) half of what makes the list so effective

As an asside, I'd point out that perhaps it is the squad itself that makes it as effective?since Eldar (arguably one of the shootiest armies) have only one way too come close, which is too field a squad of 3 warwalkera with duel missile launchers. 210 points for armor an armor 10 squad (the only upgrade available is spirit atone, which would be useless on a squad) gramtedthey have scout, but are also BS 3 not 4 which make alot more differnce when using krack instead of plasma (frag). Which of course means less
lethality, and much easier too kill model (no armor save 3+, and auto pens from most anything that would AP a 3+). note, I'm not complaining about my list, just trying too give a fair comparison

[Monster Rain]

I hate this unfortunate trend in 40k.

My real disgust for this way of playing started at Ard Boyz semis, where I saw an Ork Horde playing in the manner that you have described. I'm not the biggest fluff-nazi but it made me very, very sad. Particularly since they were painted as Goffs. I'd expect that sort of weedy behavior from Deff Skullz. I guess I'll never be able to play at that "level" because I just can't stand the thought of making this into a hyper-competitive second job, and I'm not inclined to run out and buy a new army every time someone figures out how to break the game.

All dis sneakin' about ain't propa for da boyz!

[doctorclockwork]

Can you be more specific about the Orks? What was the army/how were they playing?

[hardihar]

sounds like he ran into a weedy git Goffs army that didnt dare get in close, but de are Goffs, and just be weedy anyway. Stay back and shoot atz ya, instead of proppa krumpin.

[Monster Rain]

Oct 30, 2010 15:14:07 GMT -5 doctorclockwork said:

Can you be more specific about the Orks? What was the army/how were they playing?

If I recall correctly it was Ghazkull and Meganobz in a trukk, Warboss and Nobz in a Trukk, 15 lootas, 9 kans, 20 Stormboyz and ummm... I dunno like a bunch of Slugga Boyz to fill in the points.

He was playing against the IG Blob List of Doom and was just camping in his Deployment Zone and denying KPs because he only needed a Draw to place.

It was perhaps the most boring, soulless game I've ever seen. At least until Droofus posted that link in his OP.

Deze weedy humie runtz doesn't know da first thing about a good scrap! Only one way for it to end... either da boyz die fightin', or da other gitz do. We'z ain't hidin' in da back like a buncha grotz!

[droofus]

Oct 30, 2010 15:36:52 GMT -5 hardihar said:

sounds like he ran into a weedy git Goffs army that didnt dare get in close, but de are Goffs, and just be weedy anyway. Stay back and shoot atz ya, instead of proppa krumpin.

As an aside, I think this particular punk Tom mentioned was painted up like Bad Moonz.

I was a coinflip away from playing the same IG player he behaved so weedily against. I wonder what would have happened?

[Monster Rain]

I think you would have frakking tabled him, to be perfectly frank.