Clanrats Vs Sword Masters

[stormbringer]

First off, thanks for everyone's help yesterday with the Island of Blood scenarios, especially Poofy & Brian. I thought I would recreate one close combat involving the Sword Masters and two units of Clanrats. I want to make sure I have all the steps, modifiers, and language down. Please correct any mistakes or inacuracies.



During the Skaven movement phase, I declare a charge on the High Elf Sword Masters ( 5x2 with full command) with a unit of 20 Clanrats (5x4 with spears and full command) with attached Warpfire Thrower and joined by my Warlord (Heavy armor, Halberd, Talisman of Protection). I roll 2D6 and add the 5 movement for the Clanrats and have more than enough to wheel, move, and close the door with the front of the Sword Masters unit. I next declare a charge by a second unit of 20 Clanrats (5x4 with shields and full command) with an attached Poisened Wind Mortar and joined by my Warlock Engineer (pistol and halberd). I roll 2D6+5 and also have more than enough to make a successful charge. I wheel, move, and close the door on the flank of the Sword Masters.

During the magic phase I roll for Winds of Magic and get 3 & 3. I have six spell dice and the High Elves have three dispel dice. The Warlock casts Warp Lightning on a unit other than the Sword Masters (since they are in close combat with one of my own units that aren't slaves). I use all six dice (15 - no double sixes) and add +1 for the warlock's level, the High Elf Mage attempts to dispel with three dice (7 - no double sixes) and adds +1 for his level and +1 dispel for being a High Elf. The spell goes off. I'll leave off the gory details to focus on the close combat.

During the shoting phase, the warlock can't shoot his pistol due to close combat.

During the combat phase, I choose to resolve the Warlock's Clanrats first to avoid my Warlord fleeing (along with his leadership) before everyone finishes their fighting. The Sword Masters get ASF and the left most two (Champion and regular Sword master) attack the four Clanrats they are in base contact with. The Champion and Warlock "make way" to get in on the fight. I use 5 dice (Champion's 3 attacks and the regular's 2) at weapon skill 6 vs the Skaven's weapon skill of 3 and need 3+ to hit. I get 4 hits and reroll the miss due to ASF combined with the Sword Masters initiative being higher than the Skavens and score one more hit. I roll to wound using the Sword Master's strength of 3 against the Clanrat's toughness of 3 (needing a 4+) and get 3 wounds. The Skaven get an armour save (which isn't modified by strength due to the Sword Masters S3) of 5+ due to light armor and shield and one wound is saved. I do a parry save (because of the shield) against the two which got through, but don't make either save. I remove two Clanrats from the back of the unit.

The Clanrats attack now... four are in base contact (the champion gets an extra attack) and the rank behind them get supporting attacks for a total of 9 attacks. The Warlock doesn't get an extra attack with his pistol due to the Halberd making for a total of 9 WS3 vs WS6 attacks hitting on 4+ and 6 hit. Next I roll to wound (S3 vs T3) needing 4+ to wound and get 3 wounds. The Sword Masters get an armour save for Heavy Armour (5+) and take two wounds with no parry save. Two Sword Masters are removed from the back. Can I take 2 from the left so I only loose one supporting attack in the next combat?

Next the Warlord's Clanrats attack, but the Sword Masters attack first with ASF. Four Sword Masters attack five Clanrats plus the Warlord with 8 attacks and 3 supporting attacks (WS6 vs WS3 hits on 3+ on the Clanrats and WS6 Vs WS6 hits on 4+ on the Warlord). 3 attacks on the Warlord score 2 hits (the reroll still misses). The Sword Masters need 5+ to wound the Warlord (S3 Vs T4) and get both wounds. The Warlord gets an Armour Save for Heavy Armour (5+) but still takes both. He does a ward save due to his Talisman (4+) and now only takes one wound (out of the 3 he started with). Now 8 attacks on the Clanrats score 5 hits which are increased to 7 after the rerolls. They roll to wound the Clanrats (S3 vs T3 needing 4+) and succeed in getting 3 wounds. The Clanrats get their Armour Save (6+ due to Light Armour and no shield) and succeed in stopping one wound. Two Clanrats are taken off the back.

Now the Warlord's Clanrats attack with all 5 in the front row and 5 supporting attacks (no extra spear rank due to Charging). The Warlord is done seperately due to his WS6 and needs 4+ to hit with his 4 attacks and succeeds with 2. I roll to wound (S4 vs T3 needing 3+) and do 1 wound. The Sword Masters get their Armour Save (5+ Heavy Armour) and make it taking no wounds. Now the Clanrats go with 10 spear attacks (2 from the Champion, 3 from the rest of the front row, and 5 supporting attacks) needing 4+ (WS3 vs WS6) and get 4 hits. I roll to Wound (S4 vs T3 needing 4+) and get all 4. The Sword Masters roll their 5+ Armour Save and still take 3 wounds. I remove 3 Sword Masters from the back.

On to Combat Resolution...4 dead Skaven and 5 dead Sword Masters is +1 Skaven. Another +1 Skaven due to Charging. The Skaven have 2 Ranks with 5 models (not counting the first row) in each Clanrat unit for a bonus of +2 (since only the best counts and not both). The Sword Masters have no rank bonus due to only having their front row left. Both Standards are still standing and cancel each other out. Skaven get +1 for Flanking. The total difference is +5 Skaven. The Sword Masters take a break test (LD8 - 5 needing 3 or less) and flee rolling 7 on 2D6. They roll 2D6 to flee and get 4. Both Clanrat units choose to pursue. The Warlord's Clanrats roll 6 (but don't add +1 from Scurry Away! since they aren't fleeing) and catch the Sword Masters which destroys them. The Warlock's Clanrats also roll 6, wheel to pursue, but stop 1" away from the back of the Warlord's Clanrats.

The end?

BTW, it took me most of the day (off & on) to type this and work through it. I had to insult (consult?) the manual and army book multiple times.

Jeff

[outamimynd]

Looks like most of it is right except one major issue which might have changed the complete combat. Swordsmen have a 2 handed great weapons giving them a +2 strength (so S5) which means they would wound on 3+ and the rats would get no save (-2 to the save). This also may have changed combat with the Warlord as well.

This may have caused more dead rats and fewer return strikes so who knows how the combat may have ended. Maybe in favor of the swordsmasters??

Great write-up and I find as I try to understand 8th edition it helps me to think of things the way you described in your writing.

[droofus]

I'll get a chance to go through more later, but the first thing that pops out at me(besides echoing Wayne's comment about great weapons, which is spot on) is:

You have to declare all your charges before moving anyone. Therefore, you would declare charges with both clanrat units and the swordmasters would react to both, before resolving each clanrat unit's charge one at a time.

This can be quite important because players are asked to commit a certain number of units to charging before knowing how many (if any) of their units will make combat.

[ben1028]

In the beginning you said " I roll 2D6 and add the 5 movement for the Clanrats and have more than enough to wheel, move, and close the door with the front of the Sword Masters unit."

Just making sure that you know that you don't have to factor in the wheel or closing the door into the charge distance any more. Once you establish that your unit is within range of the target via rolling the dice and measuring straight to the target, you have the charge. You get 1 90 degree wheel while moving and then an unlimited wheel for closing the door for free, so to speak.

You may already understand this, I am just trying to catch anything that anyone else missed...

[robertdd]

"Can I take 2 from the left so I only loose one supporting attack in the next combat?"

Yes, you actually have to. When removing models you always remove from the last rank, but you have to make sure you keep as many of them fighting as you can. (Anyone correct me if I am wrong, please)

[outamimynd]

ben1028

Good point about the charge distance. It is one thing I am glad they changed in 8th and was wondering how people feel about it. Seems like in the past we always had complex measurements when we tried to figure in the wheel.

I like the "if you measure and you are in distance you can charge" theory.

[ben1028]

robertdd- yes you are correct.

outamimynd- Yeah, I like the way charges work in general now. The random charge distance can definitely make things more interesting sometimes.

[stormbringer]

Thanks for all the comments.

1) I thought I read that the stat blocks were already adjusted. I did remember that 2 handed great weapons got +2 strength. I read a discussion about great weapons and ASF which should cancel each other, but High Elves get it anyway. Also, S5 vs T3 needs 2+ according to page 51.

2) I thought I read that you declare a charge and resolve it. It's actually (page 16) declare a charge and resolve charge reaction.

3) I thought the wheel had to be included in the distance (the outside movement of the arc). That's free? I remembered that closing the door was free.

4) I'm glad I got the removing from left correct. I couldn't find anything in the book to spell it out.

The pistol getting an extra attack seemed pretty cool, until I saw he had a two handed weapon and couldn't use it.

The rank bonuses seem to be a pretty powerful thing for Clanrats. They can lose a fight and still win the combat. If they catch a unit fleeing that unit is destroyed. Skaven 101 - strength in numbers.

Jeff

[hardihar]

remember that you can only wheel once inorder to reach the target unit. ( not including a final free wheel after you have reached the unit inorder to square up).

and that wheel must be made in such a way as to maximize the numbers in combat.

also while they have changed measuring the actual wheel, you can not charge through obstacles ( including other units) if you would have to snake around them ( resulting in multiple wheels). Even if the unit would otherwise be in range.

[robertdd]

Jeff, I am pretty sure you are right on the not declaring all charges before executing them. I remember that the rulebook actually gives an example where a unit does not arrow volley a charging unit because another unit might also attempt a charge, and they want to keep their ability. I will have to look this up tonight.

[ben1028]

You declare chargers one at a time, and don't declare the next until your opponent makes his charge reaction. Then once all charges have been declared and reacted to you can begin to actually move charging units...

[droofus]

Oct 5, 2010 20:18:35 GMT -5 ben1028 said:

You declare chargers one at a time, and don't declare the next until your opponent makes his charge reaction. Then once all charges have been declared and reacted to you can begin to actually move charging units...

Bingo. 3rd paragraph on page 16 of the small book for those following at home.

[robertdd]

Yup, I found that out last night. Thanks for clarifying. So are you allowed to resolve charges in a different order than you declared them then?

[ben1028]

Yes, you can roll for and move chargers in any order, so it can be different than the order you declared them in...

The only thing I came across that could have been written a little clearer is when you declare multiple charges against one opponent.

The rule book says, " If several units have declared a charge against a single unit, then roll the charge distance of these units at the same time."

Depending on how you interpret that sentence it could either mean roll two dice for each unit and move them together, or just roll two dice and that roll applies to all units....

[droofus]

I would interpret it as the former, ben. Mainly because some units will be rolling 3d6 and dropping the lowest and others will be rolling a straight 2d6.

The intent is to determine if more than one unit will have to share the frontage on the enemy unit.