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Post by vtbear on Oct 5, 2010 14:18:55 GMT -5
the other point thing you didn't mention ben is that i only had you on three sides. could you keep summoning guys and only add them to the right flank? also your horde extended farther out than my unit of knights....could you summon guys and have them lap around the flank of the knights?
i think you are right that when you are completely surrounded you cannot summon more guys, but in this scenario i think you would be able to
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Post by ben1028 on Oct 5, 2010 20:24:44 GMT -5
Hmm, I couldn't lap around the side of your knights, but I suppose I could have extended the first rank out the free side once I was down to one rank... When summoning to a unit that already has more than one rank you can only build up back ranks, but in theory I could just keep stretching the front rank to the end of the table if I wanted onceI was down to that last rank...
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Post by vtbear on Oct 7, 2010 9:12:05 GMT -5
So I asked my friend who works for GW about this and he said you can still summon more guys and its alright to move the back unit to make room. he said as long as the move doesn't decrease the number of attacks the back unit would be able to make (i.e: base to base contact) or take them out of combat. i asked him about the Transformation of Kadon and he said don't go by that rule, its really only meant for that spell and not as an over all rule. his main point is that since there is no explicit rule about this kind of a scenario, the players should agree before hand. in a tournament though it would be up to the GM
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Post by kobahl on Oct 7, 2010 11:46:36 GMT -5
As a long time VC player I wouldn't even try to make enemy units move for raising. If I have been surrounded then I deserve the beating I'm gonna get. There are absolutely no rules for it. It could lead to too many situations were you making rules up as you go along to fit the situation. Taking the answer vtbear received let's say I was taken down to just one skellie left. I cast SuH and get say 15 models. I decide to conga the raised models and launch your unit 12 across the board.....  Oh look, now their set up for a flank charge by....whatever...you get the point. I still have full filled all the requirements that the GW worker laid out.....So unless it answered in a FAQ all we are doing is guessing. But Ben is right that if he was down to one rank he could have extended outwards. |
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Post by ben1028 on Oct 7, 2010 16:03:03 GMT -5
Well, you have to have a minimum of 5 per rank, so you couldn't really abuse that rule in the manner you outlined. To get a unit to move any reasonable distance in this type of scenario you would have to summon a ton of guys, and likely a good deal of whatever you summon is going to be cut back down in the following CC phase. Also, its not that common to be rear charged, and that is the only situation where you would be moving a unit for summoning purpose and it would only be the rear charger being moved (Ok, so theoretically if you were rear charged and double flanked while in combat to the front it might be concievable that a flank charger might be nudged over), so I don't think that it allows too much sneakiness to come into play;it would be kind of silly to allow yourself to be charged on multiple facings in order to have the slim chance of moving a unit a couple inches through summoning...
Realistically speaking, a vampire/necromancer would probably not say "Oh crap I am surrounded, if I only I had room to summon more zombies...".
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Post by Sterling Archer on Oct 7, 2010 20:40:04 GMT -5
This is raw not rai so it wouldn't be smart to bring up fluff. In a Friendly game I'd have no problem with my unit moving back and inch or so. In a tournament, were every inch can mean the difference between a major win and a minor, I might beat you over the head with the hard cover rule book.
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Post by ben1028 on Oct 7, 2010 22:09:12 GMT -5
The inch you would be losing would be towards your own unit in any case where this would happen, which doesn't seem to be relavant because if you destroy the unit in question you are only going to be able to reform (can't overrun through your own unit). Seeing as charge distance is now random, it is also doubtful that the inch will make or break somebody charging your unit, unless that unit just happened to be one inch out of charge range and the summoning moved him into charge range. Then you have to consider that magic comes after movement, so if I summon in my magic phase you have two close combat rounds until my next movement phase in which you will most likely cause enough casualties where your rear rank will have regained most of if not all of ground lost.
As far as "fluff" goes, what I said is no different than justifications the rulebook uses for doing things. For instance, when you get a legitimate charge against a unit but can't close the door because of intervening terrain, the charged unit closes the door instead. Or when you rear charge a unit and only get base to base with one model because that is all that is in the rear rank, you still get a number of attacks as if you were in contact with a full rank. In both instances the rulebook explains this as being "realistic" because in real battle the units would rush to engage each other. There are more than one or two other examples of these "fluffy" explanations...
I think that there is more to support that you could do this then not. You have a spell that can be cast into combat, and according to the FAQ the new models can be placed within 1" of enemy models as long as they are in combat with the unit that is being reinforced. The only real question is the moving the rear attacker back. That should not be an issue, because there are two instances in the rule book where the defending unit has to move. In the instance above where the defender has to close the door, that could cause a wheel of several inches, as well as expose the flank or rear to another enemy unit. In the exact scenario I have outlined, if Tylers knights had been hung up on a piece of terrain on one side and couldn't consolidate into my ghouls after wiping out a couple ranks, my ghouls and his great swords would have had to move a few inches towards his knights to get them back into base to base. Since the casting of the spell is legal, and there is precedent for shuffling units around an inch or two in close combat for unique situations (such as this one), I think that even in a tournament it would be worth a GM ruling (If the situation even came up).
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Post by Sterling Archer on Oct 7, 2010 22:30:53 GMT -5
In a tournament fluff is irrelevant. It is completely RAW, no matter how much you can explain a fluff reason for it. If I went by fluff, my dragon should be able to take on a 2000 point army by itself. It's a moot point anyways, this is a extremely rare situation which will rarely happen, and if zombies are charged in the rear by anything other then a shooty unit I'm willing to bet 95% of them will die.
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Post by Sterling Archer on Oct 7, 2010 22:34:33 GMT -5
Oh and Ben, I know it may e that 1" is a little less important now, but it does matter, ever fail a charge by an 1", now imagine if you failed by that inch because of a rule that has no definite answer to too move your unit an inch back.
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Post by vtbear on Oct 8, 2010 9:18:28 GMT -5
I think the point here is that this is a judgement call between the players. Like my GW friend said there is no explicit rule in the book, if this scenario comes up the two players should decide how to proceed. There are a bunch of grey areas in the rules when you get into these weird scenarios, the players should decide whats fair. If you are in a tournament, a GM would have to make a ruling and that will depend on their own interpretation of the rules.
Personally I think there is a larger question about Vampire Counts that needs pondering "How can a zombie play an instrument?" Seriously
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Post by ben1028 on Oct 8, 2010 10:02:34 GMT -5
Well, a zombie could have some lungs and lips left, so it might actually be able to muster some wind. A skeleton on the other hand...
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Post by Sterling Archer on Oct 8, 2010 12:18:14 GMT -5
Drums?
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Post by ben1028 on Oct 8, 2010 13:39:14 GMT -5
No, they have wind instruments...
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Post by doctorclockwork on Oct 8, 2010 18:08:07 GMT -5
I always love when these arguments come up. "How can a skeleton blow a horn?"
Not "How is it possible that this rotted skeleton is walking around?"
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Post by kobahl on Oct 9, 2010 22:47:26 GMT -5
Betcha it's hard for skellies to hear the beat.....Or maby they just feel it in their bones...I know I have been to a couple concerts that have rocked me to my bones.....  |
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Oh look, now their set up for a flank charge by....whatever...you get the point. I still have full filled all the requirements that the GW worker laid out.....So unless it answered in a FAQ all we are doing is guessing.
