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Post by khornedog on Apr 23, 2009 8:05:12 GMT -5
Looking for opinions before it comes up. I am dusting off the Crons for the Map campaign.
If I leave my army in reserves as per 5th edition rules do I automatically lose the match because of phaseout?
I have gone back and forth on this. Do necrons that are of the table not counting as Necrons on the army list? This is a big discussion on other forums. Could Necrons be nerf batted any more?
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Post by Monster Rain on Apr 23, 2009 11:00:57 GMT -5
Necrons in reserve count toward phase out. I mean, they have to don't they? Otherwise they'd pretty much auto-lose Dawn of War missions. They definitely count.
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Post by khornedog on Apr 23, 2009 13:50:09 GMT -5
This is the argument that I heard that sort of makes sense even though I dont ike it: My phaseout is 11 and it is dawn of war. I put down two squads of 10 and a lord. One gets all blowed up with the lord inside, I will phase out. While the reserved Necrons count towards total Phaseout, it is what is on the the table that counts. In amost all other instances models dont contribute until they are on the table. So if I want to be a moron I can leave my army in reserve and lose automatically. It just doesnt seem right. I soo wnat them to count but I could see someone arguing the other way. Games that depend on phase out are often very close ones.-B
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Post by Monster Rain on Apr 23, 2009 15:14:57 GMT -5
But doesn't the codex specifically say that 75% have to be destroyed to force phase out? If they're still in reserve they obviously haven't been destroyed.
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Post by darkathy on Apr 23, 2009 17:15:34 GMT -5
the Codex says destroyed, so no, reserved Crons dont count towards phase out
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Post by Monster Rain on Apr 23, 2009 19:28:16 GMT -5
The actual phrase in the Codex(i have it here):
a necron army is reduced to 25% of it's original models
It doesn't say anything about reserves anywhere, which means to me that if your phase out is 8 and you've got 30 Warriors in reserve that you don't phase out.
The alternative is just too ridiculously broken to even comprehend.
Also, this seems to support my position. It's from the FAQ on GW's site. The defense rests.
Q. Can units of Necron Warriors enter from
reserve as normal or must they enter via a
Monolith?
A. If the players hold any units of Necron
Warriors in reserve, he must specify if they are
going to enter the game through the Monolith or
simply walk in from their own table edge, as
normal. If units of Warriors are using this rule
and all available Monoliths are destroyed, the
Warriors count as destroyed and may therefore
trigger the Phase Out of the on-table portion of
the army.
The point being: Necrons in reserve have an effect on phase out.
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Post by ross on Apr 23, 2009 20:04:31 GMT -5
i would argue that if they are walking on they wouldn't count but they do for the monolith because it's like the monolith is transporting them similar to a dedicated transport carrying troops.
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Post by Monster Rain on Apr 24, 2009 7:45:53 GMT -5
Why make that distinction?
The facts that we have from the FAQ are that the Warriors in reserve can affect phase out.
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Post by khornedog on Apr 24, 2009 8:18:21 GMT -5
I just read two interesting things..
1. Models in reserve are not destroyed until the end of the game. Therefore they will count.
2. If you play 1 lord, 6 squads of 20 warriors, 3 squads of 10 immortals and 3 squads of 5 destroyers. ( a decent list) your phasout is 42. If you roll dawn of war you automatically lose, you CANT put enough Necrons on the table!!!! (thats if reserves dont count toward phaseout) That is CRAZY!
I want to say at triple play that necrons in reserve do count toawrd phaseout. No first turn cheesy wins... is that really that fun for either player? (well I suppose maybe if Grubbynuts were a Necron;))
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Post by Monster Rain on Apr 24, 2009 8:49:00 GMT -5
Well I don't see why it should just be a Triple Play house rule...
The codex says the models have to be destroyed, and they aren't destroyed while they're in reserve. I don't even understand how there's an argument to the contrary. People get way too beardy and it confuses things too much.
The question shouldn't be "Do Necrons in reserve count toward phase out?"
The question should be "Why wouldn't they?"
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Post by khornedog on Apr 24, 2009 10:49:10 GMT -5
people in other forums have argued that if necrons get to use their necron special rule then librarians get to use their psychic hoods. Again i think this whole argument is obsurd but is is a core problem with necron army rules that will come up in one third of our games. Hopefully it will be kosher that the necron players agree that necrons in reserve count for phaseout;)
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Post by Monster Rain on Apr 24, 2009 12:34:18 GMT -5
people in other forums have argued that if necrons get to use their necron special rule then librarians get to use their psychic hoods. But that's not even remotely the same thing. A Psychic Hood is wargear. Wargear usually has to be present on the table to work. Phase Out is an army-specific special rule. It's pretty cut and dry, really. The Codes says your models have to be reduced to 25% of the army. If 75% of your total Necron models haven't been destroyed you don't phase out. Period. This is just another example of people reading things into the rules that aren't there and further complicating the game. Of course if they'd answer this specific question in the FAQ it would help, but why would they do that? But seriously, the argument winner here is the FAQ specifically mentioning that the Warriors in Reserve counting as destroyed could possibly cause Phase Out. |
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Post by phoenix on Apr 24, 2009 13:41:50 GMT -5
people in other forums have argued that if necrons get to use their necron special rule then librarians get to use their psychic hoods. The Librarian argument is a non-argument, because Librarian's psychic hoods have a range - impossible when they are off-board. |
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Post by khornedog on Apr 24, 2009 14:12:49 GMT -5
I agree with you... but BA hoods have no range. I think that GW needs to update this issue. It is a core army issue. They updated DA core rules in the scoring unit issue, so why not this issue. While as gentlemen we can agree that this is the RAI, the RAW could be and is argued against the necrotyre!
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Post by jeremy3play on Apr 24, 2009 15:03:07 GMT -5
Perhaps give a call to GW number at 1800-394-GAME. They still have a rules option in the menu. It'd be fun for them to explain away the phase on DoW games with the list that Brian provided.
As far as I'm concerned, reserves count. It's absurd to penalize a player due to 5th edition not agreeing with a 3rd edition codex.
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