FOW Feb 15th (Ranking updated)

[shoey109]

Hello Generals,

This coming Friday night.

The points: 1575 Late War

Time limit for the game: 2.5 Hours


Missions:

1. Surrounded: page 282
2. Dust up: page 282
3. Pincer: page 280
4. Encounter: Page 277
5. Free For All: Page 276
6. Breakthrough: Page 286

* We will roll a six sided dice to select the nights mission. Please look over the missions in the rule book.

Tripleplay FOW Rankings:

1. Will 21 Points (Vet)
2. Vintage Steve 19 points (Vet)
3. Jeff 13 Points (New Player)
4. James 8 points (New Player)
5. Temis 7 Points (Vet)
6. Jeremy 7 points (Vet)
7. Nick 2 Points (New Player)
8. Mike 1 point (Vet)
9. Steve 1 Point (Intermediate)
10.Tony 0 Points (New Player)

The downstairs Gaming Tables have been moved into the New Space. So there will be plenty of room around the Tables this week. The upstairs can also be locked at 10 and allowing games to run past 10 pm downstairs.

[kv1e]

I will show up, not to play a full game, but If anyone would like to run some practice assaults I will be more than happy to run through them
Temis

[shoey109]

Feb 12, 2013 13:17:23 GMT -5 kv1e said:

I will show up, not to play a full game, but If anyone would like to run some practice assaults I will be more than happy to run through them
Temis

That is a great ideal.

Will

[stormbringer]

You can count me in as a definite "maybe". I just finished assembling another batch of 6 Shermans, 3 Stugs, and 2 Fireflys. Most of the super glue is still stuck to my fingers to pppprooooovvvve iiiitttttt.

I'll either bring an American list to put all the new Detroit's Finest to use or give the German Infantry some exercise for Saturday's game.

I wouldn't mind going through the assault mechanics either. In fact, I'm open for any pointers on Infantry Tactics.

Jeff

[FaithandFire]

For infantry assaults smoking you opponent and also pinning him are keys to success. At full ROF and without the smoke modifier it is way too easy to amass the 5 hits needed to repel the assault.

[shoey109]

Feb 13, 2013 9:16:17 GMT -5 FaithandFire said:

For infantry assaults smoking you opponent and also pinning him are keys to success. At full ROF and without the smoke modifier it is way too easy to amass the 5 hits needed to repel the assault.

Then again if your opponent rolls 1 and two's all night. It will be easy to walk right in and grab the objective.

It is also better to assault with Veteran infantry. In defensive fire with the smoke giving you concealment. Defensive fire would hit you on a 5 and 6.

If your are Trained it would be on a four.

Will

[shoey109]

Me and Jeff fought a battle tonight.

US tank destroyer vs a German infantry company. The mission was Pincer. The US won a 5-2 decision at the top of turn 3 with me holding a objective.

Me and Jeff ended up fighting over a objective with my infantry platoon and his defending infantry platoon. We fought till he lost all his guys and I had two teams left. I failed a morale check and my last two teams ran off after the assault.

Jeff did pinned down my first assault in turn one. I should have fell back two inches but temis though it should have been a full move. So that was not played right.

I should have rolled to unpin on top of turn two. I forgot to unpin my guys and pinned them after defensive fire pinned the assault. Pinned down platoons can not assault.

The other issue was I lost my command team in turn two assault. Temis thought they could not counter attack with out a command team.

On page 143 Leaderless platoons can still counterattack. When I won the assault. Since my command team was dead. I could not move to consolidate. Page 167.

Then one more thing was a platoon of 3 Panthers with two dead failed his morale check. Then Jeff company commander joined and also failed the roll.

Temis pointed out that his company commander would have left the table in a failed roll. So we took that back and allowed the panthers to leave the table with out his CC. Jeff would have never took that risk losing his company commander.

Also warrior teams that join the assault after charge in contact becomes a nonassaulting team. Page 144. If you want a warrior team to join the assault. They must do so before charge into contact.

We wondered about that question when my company commander was next to my assaulting platoon when we had a question about me losing my command team in our assault and wondered if i could counterattack in a assault without a command team. Then use the warrior team to replace the command team.

This was like my first assault with infantry in almost two years. It appears easy when you read about it. Then when you play a game and actually do it. Its a little hard. Then trying to find all the rules for all the questions that came up and keep the game going was even harder.

There is a British special rule page 246 that is called carry on, Sergeant. This allows a leaderless platoon to charge into combat and consolidate without a platoon command team. Temis was using this to find the rules for the question if a leaderless platoon can counterattack. Page 143.

My American rifle platoon could counterattack with out a command team. I could not consolidate because I had no command team.

If my rifle platoon would have passed there Morale check and not ran off.

Then they would have never been able to assault with out a platoon command team per page 143 until it was appointed a new leader.

My Company commander was 3 inches away from the Assault.



This game really helped me out for tomorrows infantry game. I wanted to get this out to the other players before our game in the morning.



Will

[kv1e]

Page 144 saids" Teams that are out of command are non assaulting teams.

For the game on Saturday you most be in command to assault unless you are German or British or American airborne.

Temis

[shoey109]

Feb 15, 2013 23:51:20 GMT -5 kv1e said:

Page 144 saids" Teams that are out of command are non assaulting teams. Check also Carry on Sargeant on page 246 which states that British sargeant allows British troop to charge into contact with out a platoon Comander.

Also see page 145 charge into contact which states that troops
charge into contact both when launching an assault and when counteratacking.

For the game on Saturday you most be in command to assault and counter attack unless you are German or British or American airborne.

Unless you can find me a BF staffer on the froum who saids something different.
Temis

Just to let everybody know. Temis skipped page 143. Leaderless platoons cannot assault.

per rule" You may not select a platoon without a platoon command team as the assaulting platoon, although such a platoon can still counterattack (See Page 163)".

Page 163 is the rules for counterattack for a leaderless platoon to follow.

Then if the leaderless platoon win the counterattack assault. Then a platoon can not move to consolidate per page 167.

Temis has now banned all leaderless platoons from counterattacking if they don't have a command team or if they lose a command team during a assault.

So temis is not going by the rules found on page 143. So if no platoons on the American side had no command teams.

Then every German platoon can just assault till every body is dead according to temis assault version of the rules and win the game.

If a platoon is assaulted by another platoon. Regardless if it is leaderless. It will get its turn to counterattack per page 163.

The assault once started will just keep going till the conditions Has the assaulting platoon won on page 161.

In me and Jeff's game we kept passing our motivation to counter attack till one of us met the has the platoon won the assault on page 161. I killed off his platoon and I won due to no enemy teams within 4 inches. Then the assault was over.

As long as there is a enemy team within 4 inches. The assaulting platoon has not won and the assaulted platoon rolls a motivation to counter attack. If passed. They have the option to counter attack or break off.

Page 144 states the conditions for assaulting and Non-Assaulting Teams. Must be in Command is a condition to assault. Then you can read the rest of them. Tanks cannot charge tanks and cannot assault at the double.

Then Page 146: Do not need to remain in command

Per rule " Assaulting teams do not need to remain in command when charging into contact"

There will be times when some units will be out of command in a platoon during movement. That could happen with a bailed tank that is not the platoon command tank and fails to get back in the tank. Then they have to catch up to the platoon to get back in command. So that tank would be a non-assaulting tank while the rest of the platoon can assault.

That is why they have Must be in command on page 144. That has nothing to do with Page 163 counterattack rules.

So this is why I will not be playing tomorrow. If we going to have questions and argue about these rules and have to consult the battlefront guys and the website to determine a answer.

There want be no time for me to play. Good luck. I will post this question on battlefront tonight. If the answer comes back against Temis before your game. You can till count me out. I would rather learn the game on Friday Nites and not waste a whole day on Saturday with your interpretations.

I will wait for Events run by Jeremy in the Future.

Will

[shoey109]

Chairborne

Brigadier
Posts:1675




06 Jul 2012 03:58 AM Quote Reply Alert
This is incorrect. The only stipulation for being in command is on the initial Charge to Contact. Once the assault begins, command is irrelevant. See pages 144 and 146 of the MRB.

Jonny Reb

Major
Posts:546




06 Jul 2012 04:15 PM Quote Reply Alert
The rules are set out and followed page by page.
Step 1. Pg 143 deals with which platoons may assault. One at a time these platoons gratuate to step 2.
Step 2. Pg 144 deals with which teams from the platoon may join the assault. This is where you need to be "in command"
Step 3 Pg 145. Any team that graduates from step 2 is now assaulting and (as per pg 146) is no longer required to remain in command until "Breaking off" on page 165.
Tarnowski1

Major
Posts:590




06 Jul 2012 04:19 PM Quote Reply Alert
Scott, check the V3 Q and A pdf, Phil makes it clear that only from the charge to contact section does it apply to both sides. Before that it is only the initial assaulting platoon.

Regards
Matt

[shoey109]

Feb 16, 2013 2:27:45 GMT -5 shoey109 said:

Chairborne

Brigadier
Posts:1675




06 Jul 2012 03:58 AM Quote Reply Alert
This is incorrect. The only stipulation for being in command is on the initial Charge to Contact. Once the assault begins, command is irrelevant. See pages 144 and 146 of the MRB.

Jonny Reb

Major
Posts:546




06 Jul 2012 04:15 PM Quote Reply Alert
The rules are set out and followed page by page.
Step 1. Pg 143 deals with which platoons may assault. One at a time these platoons gratuate to step 2.
Step 2. Pg 144 deals with which teams from the platoon may join the assault. This is where you need to be "in command"
Step 3 Pg 145. Any team that graduates from step 2 is now assaulting and (as per pg 146) is no longer required to remain in command until "Breaking off" on page 165.
Tarnowski1

Major
Posts:590




06 Jul 2012 04:19 PM Quote Reply Alert
Scott, check the V3 Q and A pdf, Phil makes it clear that only from the charge to contact section does it apply to both sides. Before that it is only the initial assaulting platoon.

Regards
Matt

I started the assault with a Platoon command team and met all requirements to initiate the initial assault on Jeff's German Infantry platoon defending the Objective. Then per page 146 Do not need to remain in command.

Then Me and Jeff slug it out till one of us Break Off or win the assault.

I just received one post on Battlefront website that me and Jeff played out the assault the correct way. Command does not matter till you break off and the assault is over.



Hypothetical situation.

If some how I had my rifle platoon commander killed during shooting. I would have to get my CC or 2IC over to appoint a new platoon commander. So say IT was going to take me a turn or two to get to them.

In the mean time Jeff moves a Infantry platoon over and assaults my leaderless platoon before a new leader could be appointed


Jeff would meet the initial requirements to assault by having a platoon with a command team and I would meet the requirements to counter attack his platoon per page 143.

Then Jeff would have to meet the requirements on page 144 and after that command would not matter till we resolved the assault by one of us winning the assault or breaking off.

Temis version of the Assault rules.


Jeff moves over to assault my leaderless platoon. Then after his initial assault. Jeff would check the conditions to see if he won the assault. Jeff sees that I still have enemy teams within four inches and the rules say he has not won the assault.

Temis skips the rule on page 143. Stating a leaderless platoon can counter attack (see page 163).and does not allow my leaderless platoon to counterattack because of this new rule change to the Saturday event.

Temis

"For the game on Saturday you most be in command to assault and counter attack unless you are German or British or American airborne"

So now I get back to Temis interpretation of the rules.

Jeff is over joyed because Will does not get to counterattack because I have no platoon command team. So Jeff assaults me again and kills more guys. Jeff checks to see if he won in his second assault. Dame it I still have one more team left within four inches.

I sit there looking at the page 143 rule seeing that a leaderless platoon can counter attack. Then GM Temis of the event says I can not counter attack because I am leaderless and need to be in command to counter attack. Then he is joined by Chuck AKA hardihar stating I read the rules and Temis is right.

Jeff by this time giggles and say third time is the charm. Assaults my platoon and wipes it out.

Well I am dead. Temis the GOD of rule interpretations just butchered the Flame of War rules.

So Temis just allowed a whole American infantry platoon get wiped out because they where leaderless and not in command. They where assaulted three time till the platoon was dead.

Why not destroy the platoon before they where assaulted due to them not able to counter attack per Temis. That would just speed his event along faster.

So by his new Saturday event rule. I could not counterattack per Temis and not by the rule on Page 143 stating leaderless platoons can counterattack.

So now like I stated about how Temis made snipers worthless by his ruling of the sniper deployment. Temis now made the assault rules worthless and broken.


So he just rewrote the flame of war rulebook on assaults because he can not comprehend the rules as written.



That is why I am not attending. Temis interpretations are far out in left field.

I would stay away from Temis run events and wait till Jeremy or Vintage Steve run Events. They will follow the rule book.

Will







will

[shoey109]

Feb 16, 2013 2:57:32 GMT -5 shoey109 said:

Feb 16, 2013 2:27:45 GMT -5 shoey109 said:

Chairborne

Brigadier
Posts:1675




06 Jul 2012 03:58 AM Quote Reply Alert
This is incorrect. The only stipulation for being in command is on the initial Charge to Contact. Once the assault begins, command is irrelevant. See pages 144 and 146 of the MRB.

Jonny Reb

Major
Posts:546




06 Jul 2012 04:15 PM Quote Reply Alert
The rules are set out and followed page by page.
Step 1. Pg 143 deals with which platoons may assault. One at a time these platoons gratuate to step 2.
Step 2. Pg 144 deals with which teams from the platoon may join the assault. This is where you need to be "in command"
Step 3 Pg 145. Any team that graduates from step 2 is now assaulting and (as per pg 146) is no longer required to remain in command until "Breaking off" on page 165.
Tarnowski1

Major
Posts:590




06 Jul 2012 04:19 PM Quote Reply Alert
Scott, check the V3 Q and A pdf, Phil makes it clear that only from the charge to contact section does it apply to both sides. Before that it is only the initial assaulting platoon.

Regards
Matt

I started the assault with a Platoon command team and met all requirements to initiate the initial assault on Jeff's German Infantry platoon defending the Objective. Then per page 146 Do not need to remain in command.

Then Me and Jeff slug it out till one of us Break Off or win the assault.

I just received one post on Battlefront website that me and Jeff played out the assault the correct way. Command does not matter till you break off and the assault is over.



Hypothetical situation.

If some how I had my rifle platoon commander killed during shooting. I would have to get my CC or 2IC over to appoint a new platoon commander. So say IT was going to take me a turn or two to get to them.

In the mean time Jeff moves a Infantry platoon over and assaults my leaderless platoon before a new leader could be appointed


Jeff would meet the initial requirements to assault by having a platoon with a command team and I would meet the requirements to counter attack his platoon per page 143.

Then Jeff would have to meet the requirements on page 144 and after that command would not matter till we resolved the assault by one of us winning the assault or breaking off.

Temis version of the Assault rules.


Jeff moves over to assault my leaderless platoon. Then after his initial assault. Jeff would check the conditions to see if he won the assault. Jeff sees that I still have enemy teams within four inches and the rules say he has not won the assault.

Temis skips the rule on page 143. Stating a leaderless platoon can counter attack (see page 163).and does not allow my leaderless platoon to counterattack because of this new rule change to the Saturday event.

Temis

"For the game on Saturday you most be in command to assault and counter attack unless you are German or British or American airborne"

So now I get back to Temis interpretation of the rules.

Jeff is over joyed because Will does not get to counterattack because I have no platoon command team. So Jeff assaults me again and kills more guys. Jeff checks to see if he won in his second assault. Dame it I still have one more team left within four inches.

I sit there looking at the page 143 rule seeing that a leaderless platoon can counter attack. Then GM Temis of the event says I can not counter attack because I am leaderless and need to be in command to counter attack. Then he is joined by Chuck AKA hardihar stating I read the rules and Temis is right.

Jeff by this time giggles and say third time is the charm. Assaults my platoon and wipes it out.

Well I am dead. Temis the GOD of rule interpretations just butchered the Flame of War rules.

So Temis just allowed a whole American infantry platoon get wiped out because they where leaderless and not in command.

So he just rewrote the flame of war rulebook on assaults because he can not comprehend the rules as written.

That is why I am not attending. Temis interpretations are far out in left field.

I would stay away till a event is run by Jeremy or Vintage Steve.

Will







will

Just another reason why I want be there today and reinforce Temis can not Interpret rules correctly.

hoey

Corporal
Posts:25




16 Feb 2013 07:54 AM Edit Quote Reply Alert
We had a situation where a American rifle company started a assault against a German infantry company guarding a objective.

During the German Counter attack. The American platoon command team was killed. There was a third party watching the battle that question could the American Rifle platoon counter attack with out its platoon command team.

We followed the rule on Page 143 that a leaderless platoon can counter attack see page 163.

The assault ended after all German teams where dead and two American teams where left standing. Then page 167 states with out a platoon command team. The two american teams could not move to consolidate.

Did we play this assault right? If the American Rile platoon lost there command team. Could they counter attack with out it?

Will

btboyd

Private
Posts:19




16 Feb 2013 08:27 AM Quote Reply Alert
Correct they can counter attack. However i without a platoon command you can still move (ie can still consolidate) as long as you are moving directly away from the enemy.
lochy

Lieutenant
Posts:158




16 Feb 2013 11:54 AM Quote Reply Alert
You played it all correct. Platoons with no command team can counterattack but may not move to consolidate as per the rules on pg 143 and 167.
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Forums > Gaming > Rules Questions

[shoey109]

I would like to add one more thing to me and jeffs game. Me and jeff had three assaults stopped by defensive fire. The first one I was sure you only fell back two inches from enemy teams. Temis stated you moved back a full move.

So I did not challenge what he said and check the rule on pinning a assault on defensive fire rule. This would have made the game go to turn three. Jeff did a last ditch effort to assault my four stuarts sitting on the objective. I pinned the assault and cause him to lose teams. Jeff moved back a full move with his infantry. Instead he should have fell back two inches. That would have cause him to contest the objective. Game is not over. The problem for him on my next turn. He would have faced allot of shots in the open. Then he would have been able to roll for reserves. Whether that would changed the outcome. Unknown.

The good thing is me and jeff did allot of assaulting back in forth. So we both learn some rules. Every time I play jeff. We always get better at learning the rules.

Will

[shoey109]

One more thing to add about me and jeffs game. Turn one jeff stopped my infantry in defensive fire. I then took my four stuarts and decided to assault the same infantry. I thought they where just mg teams. I learned that those teams where packing panzerfaust. Jeff bailed two stuarts. Then again by the rules they should have fallen back two inches and the bailed tanks the same and remained bailed.

Then jeffs next turn he could have fired again with his panzerfaust at my platoon. If he would got a kill. That would have caused me to test after the shooting step. If I passed. Then he could have assaulted. That could have took them out of the game turn one.

Then again If I knew they all where panzerfaust packing teams. I would never had assaulted. I would have took a more defensive position.

So I could have lost the stuarts on turn one. Then I lost my infantry platoon during the assault. So by listening to temis. Jeff could had been in a postion to win the game.

I would have been forced to bring my two m18 tank destroyer platoons out of the woods to attack the objective. That would have took time and by that time Jeff would be rolling to get reserves. Those reserves arrive on the sides of the map.

So the game would have gotten better for Jeff and scarier for me because my tank destroyers are paper shells. Then the thought of attacking and assaulting panzerfaust packing infantry to win the game would be a up hill climb.

My US Tank Destroyer Company depends on my rifle platoon and Stuarts to take a objective to win the game. If I lose that element in my force. It would be harder to win.

So jeff my friend. If we would have went to the rule book and not listen to temis. You sir could have won that game and me maybe not.

Cheers

Will

[kv1e]

Feb 16, 2013 8:37:40 GMT -5 shoey109 said:

One more thing to add about me and jeffs game. Turn one jeff stopped my infantry in defensive fire. I then took my four stuarts and decided to assault the same infantry. I thought they where just mg teams. I learned that those teams where packing panzerfaust. Jeff bailed two stuarts. Then again by the rules they should have fallen back two inches and the bailed tanks the same and remained bailed.

Then jeffs next turn he could have fired again with his panzerfaust at my platoon. If he would got a kill. That would have caused me to test after the shooting step. If I passed. Then he could have assaulted. That could have took them out of the game turn one.

Then again If I knew they all where panzerfaust packing teams. I would never had assaulted. I would have took a more defensive position.

So I could have lost the stuarts on turn one. Then I lost my infantry platoon during the assault. So by listening to temis. Jeff could had been in a postion to win the game.

I would have been forced to bring my two m18 tank destroyer platoons out of the woods to attack the objective. That would have took time and by that time Jeff would be rolling to get reserves. Those reserves arrive on the sides of the map.

So the game would have gotten better for Jeff and scarier for me because my tank destroyers are paper shells. Then the thought of attacking and assaulting panzerfaust packing infantry to win the game would be a up hill climb.

My US Tank Destroyer Company depends on my rifle platoon and Stuarts to take a objective to win the game. If I lose that element in my force. It would be harder to win.

So jeff my friend. If we would have went to the rule book and not listen to temis. You sir could have won that game and me maybe not.

Cheers

Will

Just like you were able to find the answer to the question about the need, or non need , for command in assault and and counterattack ! .

And do not worry I will remain silent on any rules question involving you in the future.