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Post by stormbringer on Mar 18, 2011 19:09:16 GMT -5
Everyone,
I've been looking at the cavalry options for High Elves and want to make sure I'm not missing anything. They all get 5 WS3/S3 attacks from the horses. Do horses get to reroll misses (I think not) due to Elven ASF?
For Ellyrian Reavers, a unit of 10 is 238 points (with Bows) and gets me a 5+ Armour Save (Light Armour & Mounted) with 10 WS4/S4 (S3+Spear) attacks on the charge. They also get 10 BS4 & 1 BS5 bow shots.
For Silver Helms, a unit of 10 is 270 points (with Shields) and gets me a 2+ Armour Save (Heavy Armour, Shield, Mounted, & Barded) with 11 WS4/S5 (S3+Lance) attacks on the charge. The barding slows them by 1.
For Dragon Princes, a unit of 10 is 350 points and gets me a 2+ Armour Save (Dragon Armour, Shield, Mounted & Barded) with 16 WS5/S5 (S3+Lance) attacks on the charge (5 from supporting attacks). The barding slows them by 1. This unit can take a banner up to 50 points and the Drakemaster can take magic items up to 25 points. Any suggestions on a banner & kit for the Drakemaster?
No one gets a ward save, correct?
Am I missing anything? Dragon Armour doesn't seem to be as great as the name. The 2+ Armour Save for the Silver Helms and Dragon Princes is pretty great. Is 80 points worth the extra attacks for the Dragon Princes? Is there extra kit that makes the Dragon Princes the "head and shoulders" winner?
Jeff
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Post by droofus on Mar 18, 2011 21:19:01 GMT -5
Put it like this: for harrasment and light cavalry duties (scaring off skirmishers and bothering war machines and lone characters) then Ellyrian reavers are the elves for the job. The removal of effective march-blocking tactics means that they got a lot less interesting.
Massed cavalry charges (something I haven't tried, but people elsewhere seem to use to varying degrees of effect) mean using silver helms. Back in the previous army book they were core, so there are a lot of High Elf players with a boatload of these guys that we hardly use. But again, some people have found them effective.
For actually killing things, then Dragon Princes are everywhere you want to be. Just don't rank them up. Generally taking ranks of Dragon Princes beyond the first are wasted points. The ranks won't help you break a steadfast unit and you're only using half the attack. If you want ranked cavalry then go with the helms. I usually use a unit of 5 with one or two characters. Banner choice depends HEAVILY on the rest of your army. The arcane protection banner is nice in an army in which you're magic light. If you have a magic heavy warhost, then I recommend the banner of sorcery. Otherwise, the banners of butchery and piercing are handy buffs for the unit.
A caution, do not expect them to kill EVERYTHING. They fare very badly against anything with a 2+ armour save or high toughness. Something with both is likely to just eat them for lunch, as will steadfast units, as they can absorb the initial impact and throttle the princes in later turns. Best use is probably combining for a charge with some spearmen. That way you get the ranks of the spears and the raw killing power of the princes.
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Post by ben1028 on Mar 18, 2011 23:09:49 GMT -5
In this edition it seems that cavalry should be used to support other units by disrupting on the flanks, or by adding extra wounds in the case of some of the stronger cavalry out there. Regardless of armor save, if they end up fighting a giant horde that gets 20+ attacks against them they will probably take one or two unsaved wounds. Won't be too horrible for combat resolution, but one or two wounds on a unit of 5-10 sucks. Supporting a big block of infantry they work really well, as they can get into position for flank or rear charges easier, and can run regular troops down pretty easy with swiftstride...
Reavers are basically a waste of time and points. 10 bow shots at S3 just won't do anything useful enough to warrant the points, and they aren't good at close combat at all. The only thing I can really think of is using them to trigger and maybe kill fanatics and mangler squigs, as moving into either will kill them and spare the rest of your army. You can probably get them close enough to trigger them in the first turn if you are lucky, and that will cause a headache to your enemy as they won't want to run into them during their turn....
Dragon princes are good, but are definitely pricey and still pretty squishy after the initial charge. I think the dragon armor gives them immunity to fire or something doesn't it?
In my opinion, silverhelms are probably a good bet. They are cheaper than dragon princes and still decent on the charge...
Beware putting characters in small units of cavalry though. Remember that mounted characters don't benefit from "Look out Sir!" from unmounted troops, so once there are less than 5 rank and file cavalry in that unit your characters will be vulnerable to templates and cannons. I think once there are less than 5 rank and file you also have to start allocating hits from regular shooting to your characters...
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Post by hardihar on Mar 19, 2011 7:33:39 GMT -5
Cavalry is now support troops. they are useful to go for flanks, heavilly armored they can still charge in and win against a horde, but they will then be facing a stubborn foe, with a reroll.
Reavers can be used, exactly for that pulling fanatics job, also if they can get to a war machine. 1 or 2 small units for the flanks use and try them out. but fast cav with a vanguard move to interfere with your opponents.
Silver Helms have usually been the cav of choice in the past, but as ben says Dragon princes give a good hit and with fire immunity nothing more irritating than forgetting about it then charging into them with heavy hitters with flaming attacks.
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Post by stormbringer on Mar 19, 2011 8:51:15 GMT -5
So if I knock the unit size down to 5 with one of those being a musician (for Swift Reforms) and no champion or banner... we get:
92 points for the Ellyrian Reavers with 5 WS4/S4 attacks on the charge and a 5+ Armour Save.
123 points for the Silver Helms with 5 WS4/S5 attacks on the charge and a 2+ Armour Save.
160 points for the Dragon Princes with 10 WS5/S5 attacks on the charge and a 2+ Armour Save.
It sounds like there are two roles... mess with movement or smash into flanks as supporting attacks. It seems to me the Silver Helms would be ideal for messing with movement. They are only 31 points more than the Ellyrian Reavers and are more resilient with the 2+ Armour Save. I think the 5 BS4 bow shots from the Ellyrian Reavers could be pretty interesting though. A lucky shot or two could be big in the back ranks. Mark was plucking off a model a turn with his one longbow on his Wood Elf.
The Dragon Princes seem to be the better choice for flank smashing. The extra 5 attacks seems like the better choice. It's like having an extra rank for 37 more points. They are most likely hitting on 3+, so with a reroll that's going to be close to 8 or 9 hits. S5 will be 2+ or 3+ to wound most of the time and cause probably 7 wounds. Most Armour Saves will be eliminated by the S5. The 2+ armour save should keep their losses to 1 or less per combat. They should remove more than a rank each time. Is my Warhammer Math sound right?
I should do some testing with a block of 50 Skavenslaves and/or 30 Clanrats. I'm curious how fast 28 Lothern Sea Guard and 5 Dragon Princes could chew through them. That would be 28 WS4/S3 & 10 WS5/S5 (all rerolled) attacks to start with. I wouldn't be surprised to see close to 20 rats dead per combat. I think it would still take two turns (3-4 combats) to make them run due to Strength in Numbers.
Jeff
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Post by ben1028 on Mar 21, 2011 20:44:03 GMT -5
Your math seems pretty good on the Dragon Princes as far as average human statline troops go...
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