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Post by Sterling Archer on May 30, 2012 16:00:24 GMT -5
im talking about all the bitching
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Post by discordian on May 30, 2012 16:13:31 GMT -5
I found the way to enjoy a megabattles is to get the bitching out of the way before hand, drinking, and not to have expectations of wining.
Its 40k in its purest un-competitive mode. Its just way to see what ridiculous things can happen in a dice game.
Of course we can just have a massive team game like we did last weekend. Having only 2000 points a person and a force org.
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Post by greenmtvince on May 30, 2012 18:01:24 GMT -5
I agree with Discordian. As much as I'm not into Apocalypse games, GW did get it right in that Apocalypse is all about talking about what's cool with everyone beforehand and adjusting the rules accordingly. I think it's healthy to get it all out here so that everyone has the same expectations when we show up to throw down. Droofus wants to encourage lots of models, Discordian wants superheavies treated fairly, most people don't want broken strategems being used. It's all good.  |
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Post by Sterling Archer on May 30, 2012 20:04:41 GMT -5
Apocalypse is all bout bringing out all your models and throwing down. Balance isn't required.
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Post by Sterling Archer on May 30, 2012 20:06:07 GMT -5
I have no problem with making ban lists or adjusting it accordingly. But you have to be willing to adapt your ideas to other peoples. Not complain about them because they differ from yours.
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Post by droofus on May 30, 2012 20:40:06 GMT -5
I think that's a more complete picture of the Baneblades abilities. ;D What's interesting is that you have by-and-large presented things custom-made to kill the baneblade, conceding that the Baneblade will have an advantage if it goes first. I certainly grant you that should the medusa battery or melta vets get the drop on the baneblade, the baneblade will likely be damaged heavily or destroyed outright by the time its turns rolls around. However, the utility of these units you have presented, should they end up on the opposite side of the massive board from the baneblade might be lessened if they find themselves across from, say, a horde of orks (with the notable exception of the manticores). Meanwhile, due to its diverse weaponry and multi-targeting abilities, the baneblade retains its utility against all possible opponents with the added benefit of excellent survability. Are they invulnerable? Certainly not. But they are super-tough and very, very, killy. So given equal points which would you take? Even leaving aside the cool factor, I think most players would choose the greater utility and survivability that the baneblade offers over any of the options you have presented. This holds true with most super-heavies. Throw in D Weaponry and you have a true no brainer. Even the apocalypse book recognizes the inherent imbalance that super-heavies represent - awarding free strategic assets to teams equal to the number of extra super heavies that the other side is fielding. I simply feel that they haven't gone far enough. One more it in clarification, if it may please the court  . In addition to trying to get more troops on the table, I was trying to throw a bone to people who may not have a super-heavy to field and give them a chance to do something besides getting mowed down by 10" templates and D weaponry. All that said you probably have a point about the asset AND the 500 points being too much. I'm thinking we could drop it to simply the extra 500 and not have a ton of extra strategic assets mucking the board up (especially given that many players will have assets from their strategic formations). |
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Post by snickerdoodle on May 31, 2012 1:49:49 GMT -5
I like the way you have balanced it out Drew, I thuink it is fair, but Ilike getting lots of models on the table.
How cheesy are we allowed to get on picking our lists, alittle IG here , gk there, ba where convienient. Could I just take the 20 best ICs in the game and play it as my army?
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Post by ross on May 31, 2012 5:43:27 GMT -5
I like the way you have balanced it out Drew, I thuink it is fair, but Ilike getting lots of models on the table. How cheesy are we allowed to get on picking our lists, alittle IG here , gk there, ba where convienient. Could I just take the 20 best ICs in the game and play it as my army? That's what I did last time |
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Post by discordian on May 31, 2012 8:53:04 GMT -5
REBUTTAL
Actually I ignored the “who goes first?” completely, because if I did I would also have to account for other random things. Like was blind barrage chosen, night fight, terrain setup, how much sleep I got the night before? Same reason why I ignored what else was playing on the table, because then I’d have to ask is there a super heavy with D-weapons, deepstriking TH/SS, Railguns, harliquins......... Yes in fact you wont have 1 banebalde fighting a equal amount of points. But all these things that could hypothetically be there also cost points just like the baneblade, which costs points based on its potential.
In fact even if the baneblade goes first the first two options I gave will still have the advantage. Why? because they'll still be out of range almost everything, so their survivibilty at the very least for first turn is really high. Indriect doesn't hurt either, because they dont have to be visible to shoot or be able to see what they are shooting at. The only reason manticores fell out of favor in tournaments is because in fact they have range bands. 40k has created an issue where the table isn’t big enough and everything is faster. In a megabattle the table setup is bigger allowing the manticores to actually make use of their 24-120" range as opposed to being limited to a max of 86" present by a 4X6 board where everyone is shoving melta down your throat turn two. Although it would be hilarious seeing 6000 plus points on one standard table.
Also you said that the 500 points of baneblade are superior to 500 points of anything else in guard. I presented several 500ish points of guard options that actually scare me more than a baneblade not just beacuse they can kill it but also kill almost anything far more indiscriminately.
For some reason you have this impression that super heavies are not points fair wise. I don’t. The only expections I see are titans or other giant things that have mutliple D blast weapons and shields. Those I feel need to be balanced team wise if they are being used because of their sheer alpa strike potential. But things like baneblades, shadowswords, wacky malcador tanks, and most flyers are really not as scary most are pretty points fair if not over expensive for what they are. Flyers in particular now if you use the newest rules from forgeworld becasue if you do go to the chart you have a 1 in 3 chance of causing multipe results becasue they treat imbolised as a 6. SO 50% to kill a non super heavy flyer on the chart and almost a 50% to kill a heavy super flyers because they only ever really go to 2 struture points (manta and thunderhawk aside).
Back to the baneblade. Lets try and break it down roughly.
500 point Baneblade:
Guns
1 72 str 9 ap 2 10” ordnance blast (which has a 50% chance of ignoring any destroyed or shaken results applied to it)
1 24 str 10 ap 2 ordnance large blast
2 lascannon
2 twinlinked heavy bolter
1 auto cannon, which if it hits, allows rerolling of the scatter on the 10" blast gun
Other Rules
Can only move 6" but may fire all its guns as if it were stationary
3 Structure Points (can essentially survive 3 "destroyed" results)
Can split fire
First "immobilized" result drops its movement by half. Second "immobilized" result prevents it from moving.
"Shaken" results apply only to individual guns, not the entire vehicle.
Equals too...
? Main Cannon (not to concerned about the scatter of a 10" blast unless its a vehicle I’m shooting at, but we'll lump it into question mark)
165 1 Demolisher lemon russ tank
30 2 lascannon
45 twinlink its bolter and add bolter sponsons (add a 50% mark for twinlink) also there are three of them
25 Autotcannon heavy weapon base
=265+?
? Can move and fire all weapons and have to be shaken individually
0 can split fire (so can pretty much any 500 points of anything)
=0+?
The closet thing I can come to for structure points is just adding hulls which could justify how it treats chart results. But also you’re forgetting that on a 6 a super heavy can loss more than 1 structure point. Also if they wreck they have 1 in 3 chance of going nuclear in your opponents deployment zone, which is always fun.
170 2 Atlas (closet thing to a unarmed Lemon Russ I could think of)
-100 for there 2 bolter, 2 repair, and 2 tow ability (rough points cost of the abilities and weapon
=70
total =335 + ? for the main gun + ? for move and shoot and have to be shaken individually
500-335 = 165 for
main gun
possible twinlinking of main gun
4+ save on main gun
move and fire as a fast vehicle (which is only like 10 points in tau codex for comparison)
Individual shake (if you had more units you would also have to shake each unit as well)
Not too shaby if you ask me. Seems pretty fair
You’re forgetting three massive things about a baneblade though. First it's in fact one model, target priority goes out the window because in fact you don't have to figure out what of a 500 points force you need to target first, all your heavy weapons that would have to shoot at separate targets in fact have one big one instead. Two all its firing happens at the same time so a lot of its guns which all have different range will be shooting at different targets because heavy bolters aren’t usually shooting at the same thing as lascannons, much like what 500 points of a army would be doing. And three it is very hard to hide a Baneblade unless you have like another baneblade in front of it.
P.S. .... REBUTTAL has a BUTT in IT!
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Post by droofus on May 31, 2012 9:14:52 GMT -5
I like the way you have balanced it out Drew, I thuink it is fair, but Ilike getting lots of models on the table. How cheesy are we allowed to get on picking our lists, alittle IG here , gk there, ba where convienient. Could I just take the 20 best ICs in the game and play it as my army? The way I run it is to choose an army and pretty much stick to it. I know that doesn't work for everyone though. Personally, my ideal for a good apocalypse game can be found in the back of the reloaded book. The themed armies they took really made for an awesome game. Then again, I know a lot of people (Ross  ) want to throw down 10 thunderlords and start laying the hammer down and that's cool too. We've got to talk about teams at some point. However, right now I'm going to be concentrating on the tourney on the 9th, as that is a whole lot closer. |
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Post by discordian on May 31, 2012 10:14:33 GMT -5
Its probably about time to have separate threads for them two.
Check and see if any of the missions from Battle Missions are at all usable in a tournament, it might give us some fresh blood to kill each other with.
Oh OH or you can find a real 40k rule book like 4th that had tons of missions in it.
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Post by blodgetter on Jun 1, 2012 18:31:20 GMT -5
I'm of the opinion that this event will probably end up ruined for a few people because of one person, who's seems too have a repetitive knack for doing just that. We all enjoy a good game, and too play what we like, all balancing issues aside, I fear it is the "repotitious over used feminine hygyne product, with a penchant for oraly stimulating himself" which will make this one (as most others) less enjoyable. I'd love too be mistaken however. Any bets?
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Post by ross on Jun 1, 2012 18:33:02 GMT -5
which event?
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Post by discordian on Jun 1, 2012 19:11:01 GMT -5
Which person?  |
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Post by doctorclockwork on Jun 1, 2012 19:52:42 GMT -5
This thread is starting to get a little ridiculous. Try and tone it down, guys. I'd love to never hit "close thread" for the third time in my admin career.
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. In addition to trying to get more troops on the table, I was trying to throw a bone to people who may not have a super-heavy to field and give them a chance to do something besides getting mowed down by 10" templates and D weaponry. 
) want to throw down 10 thunderlords and start laying the hammer down and that's cool too.
