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Post by droofus on Jul 27, 2012 9:26:20 GMT -5
Been reading the rules with an eye towards tournaments. I can tell you that we will NOT be using the terrain set up rules for tournaments. That simply adds too much time to each round. Plus, I shudder to think of some of the dumb-looking tables that this would produce in a competitive environment. Instead, all terrain will be pre set up. I'm still trying to reconcile this with some of the new rules...
Specifically, I think it means making sure that there is no impassable or lethal terrain in the center of tables that will be used in a tourney featuring a "The Relic" mission. I'm also thinking that we'll roll with a terrain density of 2 for all the 2x2 squares on the board, meaning that if you want to deploy a fortification (which does count against the terrain density) you'll have to remove an existing large piece of terrain from the 2x2 square or several smaller pieces.
On the plus side, the victory point system gives us a built-in tiebreaker system for the W/L/D tournaments that I still plan on running.
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Post by jeremyholiday on Jul 27, 2012 11:05:27 GMT -5
I am gonna be bringing an Aegis defense line... I know some of the rules around it still need to be smoothed out, but I am gonna go for it anyway. As per the above, when would we I remove the big piece of terrain and place the defense line?
Also, can I only lay down one line, or can I lay several as long each is touching another and I don't use more than the 4 big and 4 small?
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Post by droofus on Jul 27, 2012 12:41:55 GMT -5
I'd have to go back and read it, but I think it is one line.
I'm actually glad you're bringing fortifications. I'd love to have this tested out.
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Post by jeremyholiday on Jul 27, 2012 12:54:20 GMT -5
the issue that has come up before as well is the issue of who gets cover and when... I assumed it would be just like a ruin, I am behind it, and can see the baddies unobstructed, but when they shoot at me I get a cover save. I played a game where my opponent wanted a cover save from the defense line as they got close to the line itself. The rule says that any model in cover behind a line gets the 4+ cover... I assume there is a different between the front and the back of the defense line... but that could be abused, i.e. how far back does the cover save extend.
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Post by ross on Jul 27, 2012 14:43:31 GMT -5
A lot of people are going for no allies too or ignoring the 2 force org charts for above 2000. I know ogc is disallowing allies.
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Post by jeremyholiday on Jul 27, 2012 14:54:17 GMT -5
I understand the argument about 2 force org charts... 1999 or 1995 seems a good solution to that or the good ole 1850 even. Allies, however, I am super excited about and I would not like it if we never allowed them in our tournaments.
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Post by ross on Jul 27, 2012 16:09:33 GMT -5
I agree with you, Allies does mean we should have strict rules about having BOTH army rules books with you as a requirement to play.
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Post by hardihar on Jul 27, 2012 18:22:35 GMT -5
Allies just lead to massive min/maxing in tourney lists and im fully expecting to be a huge no no in any ongoing serious tournament environment. Just as the 2nd force chart at 2k is going to be a real min/max train ride as the net lists will dominate both the allies and 2nd force chart in tourneys that allow them. There will be lists that are justhugely unbalanced in either environment, or at least that would be what all my years of tournament play tell me.
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Post by commissardanno on Jul 27, 2012 18:47:11 GMT -5
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Post by ross on Jul 28, 2012 6:19:18 GMT -5
What the hell is an exalted chariot? are they in the book?
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Post by Sterling Archer on Jul 28, 2012 6:39:36 GMT -5
Should be in the new white dwarf.
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Post by blodgetter on Jul 29, 2012 14:12:56 GMT -5
After the games yesterday, I thought it would be worth adding this here, too get a ruleing in advance.
The question being: Does a Flyer in Hover retain Skyfire?
my two cents: I belive its fairly clear, it will indeed retain the ability.
A Flyer has two Option chosen in the movement phase, either Hover or Zoom.
Zoom: there are a few specific things it must/can do. Dealing with movement and the number of weapons it can fire. (notably skyfire is under a seperate part of the Flyers rules)
Hover: Treated as a fast skimmer. Under the fast skimmers rule, this restricts how it can move, and how many weapons it can fire. (notealy it does not state how those weapons may be fired or at what targets, only how many)
Conclusion: A fast skimmer neither grants, nor denies the ability to have skyfire. Presumably in the future they willhave variants of the Elder firestorm with skyfire, etc. Simply put however, being a (fast) skimmer doesnt mean your not alloowed too have skyfire. Thus even if you are trated exactly as one, it doesnt prohibit you from having the rule. If saying its now a fast skimmer so is no longer a flyer, were an acurate state ment, I wouldent ever be able too return too zoom mode. Or more importantly, I could start them on the table since only Flyers have too start the game in reseves. Long and short again being: a Flyer has special rules pertaining too flyers. At no time does it stop being a flyer. Flyers have skyfire.
As a side note: it puts me in mind of the argument that a dreadknight with personal teleporter could ride in vehicles since it became jump infantry
Thanks for your attention, and look foward to reading your thoughts
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Post by neb on Jul 29, 2012 23:27:14 GMT -5
I think (especially in a low point environment) Disallowing allies would be unreasonable. Consider the fact that you are -required- to take an hq and troop choice from the allied list. Yes there might be the occasion that you want that ally for the hq, but most of the time I'd be willing to bed it's for an elite, fast or heavy slot, so you'll be paying a lot of extra points.
Example: You want to ally with Necrons (would use another faction but I have these guys memorized for points lol) and you want an Annihilation barge. (90 points.)
To do this you must
A: Take an hq, cheapest in the codex is an un-upgraded Overlord (90 points)
B: Take a troop (5 warriors for 65 points)
That annihilation barge just went from 90 points to 245! and the warriors don't even count as scoring.
I could see it getting stupid above 2k with a double force org, but at a point value of 1500 I honestly believe that you're just going to be gimping yourself by taking allies, so why not allow it? It is part of the rules after all and if we're going to pick through the rule book deciding on rules we do and don't like, what game are we actually playing at that point? Just because something looks like it's potentially scary doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try it first before knocking it.
I know a lot of people are worried about allying with IG (which almost everyone can it looks like) 'cause their stuff is fairly cheap and can pack a punch, but this could be part of what balances out flyers. If you look at the current codex's without allies:
Black Templar
Dark Angels
Tau
Eldar
Sisters of Battle
Space Wolves
Chaos Space Marines
(Tyranids and Chaos daemons don't get flyers but they do get flying monstrous creatures, not quite as good though)
None of the above get flyers nor -any- units with any form of skyfire (unless you take fortifications at which point you're paying a ton just to have the -ability- to maybe bring down a flyer) Allies is the most effective way to leveling the playing field with the new flyer rules. I played a game against tau yesterday running four night scythes, I was glanced once and just flew around shooting the entire game until the bottom of turn five where I disembarked onto objectives for the win.
I've gotten in a good 60+ 6th ed games since the rulebook came out (and that's an incredibly modest estimate, it's been 2 to 3 a day consitantly) Exploring every aspect of the new rules including allies and double force org. My personal experience so far, has been that an allied list can look very intimidating at first, but it really isn't that hard to deal with, especially for anyone who has faced these types of units before. You just have to adapt.
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Post by hardihar on Jul 30, 2012 7:13:44 GMT -5
If adapting means you need to take allies as well, then there are clear issues.
as was known 20 years ago, what allies brings to any form of warhammer is minmaxing, and yes it can cost extra but inorder to cover up a hole that was designed into your codex its often going to be worth it.
It means you nolonger have the downsides of your codex that are supposed to balance off the advantages, expect to see this horrendously abused, because whenever it has been allowed it has resulted in disgusting abusive combos and today with netlists its only going to be worse. I fully expect that by this time next year there will be only a couple of armies that regularly top unregulated tourneys.
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Post by hardihar on Jul 30, 2012 7:14:46 GMT -5
Also fortifications in tourneys is going to end up as a no go just for all the logistical issues it will raise.
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