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Post by neb on Jul 30, 2012 10:36:11 GMT -5
Aren't there already only a couple of armies that regularly top the tournies?
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Post by discordian on Jul 30, 2012 10:46:56 GMT -5
blodgetter I think your right about a flyer in hover still being able to skyfire, its pretty specific about what it counts as and what happens to its rules in hover. And skyfire shouldn't change since the flyer rules for skyfire are separate from the movement and number of weapon rules.
Thankfully a Dreadknight as per the new faq is not jump infantry but jump monstrous creature so that silly shenanigans wont be brought up again.
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Post by jeremyholiday on Jul 30, 2012 13:22:46 GMT -5
I disagree with Chris and Mark on this - It is my opinion that the phrase "treated exactly like a fast skimmer" means that for the rest of that turn (while in hover mode) it behaves exactly like a fast skimmer which does not have the benefit of the skyfire rule.
But first, I think the real issue is that Poofy is kicking all of our butts with his 3 vendettas. It is a bit of a shock that IG is coming back with some serious butt kicking this edition, but they have had fliers a lot longer than other lists, so I think it seems fair that when fliers get their proper due in 40k that IG comes out on top. The thing that makes the 3 vendettas so effective is that most other armies do not have effective or efficient anti-air capacities. That is a problem with the other lists, to my mind, not the vendettas or the fliers rules.
That said, I offer the three arguments below as to why fliers in hover mode don't get skyfire.
1) This explanation seems to make the most logical sense based on what I think they were trying to get at with the new flyer rules. As a flyer you are either zooming (which has new rules) or Hover [if you have the mode] (and that follows the same rules that we know from before)
2) Skyfire is universal special rule that is given to all flyers because of their status as fliers. Since the wording says that you treat the flyer in hover mode exactly as a fast skimmer, you would no longer benefit from the skyfire rule for the rest of that turn.
3) If you look at the formulation of the hover strike rules for the Stormtalon, it allows you to get a bonus to shoot at anything but fast skimmers. I would argue that this was an archaic form of the the skyfire rule and shows the intention of the two modes of flyers. Mode 1) moving fast and hitting other fast skimmer / fliers easily or 2) Hover mode which allows you to hit non fliers more easily, but not fast skimmer / fliers.
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Post by fuzzums on Jul 30, 2012 15:28:17 GMT -5
I think Allies are silly. I am not going to get into why because most of the topics are in discussion right now, no need to re-iterate them.
Neb: You say there are armies that regularly top the tournaments, but this is a weird community we are in. People stop running armies when they feel something is better. Those armies topping the charts have not and will not put fear into opponents that are running a proper list. If you go to a tournament where people are net listing MSU, then hell yea that list is going to win. If I am not being articulate enough about that, let me just say people are not very good at the strategic part of this game. They can abuse the rules; however, they can not run proper tactics on the board. (This is my experience so far.) I have not come across a game in 5th ed where I didn't think I could win if I played right and rolled even half-way average.
In 6th ed I see my self folding when i look at certain lists. The 3 storm raven lists? I 100% honestly see my self just handing the win to my opponent because that game is going to be stupid. A vehicle that is already (in my opinion) the craziest vehicle in the game now needs 6's to be hit and easily acquires a 5 up save if you need it? They are not that expensive and being assault vehicles means bad things are popping out and clearing the objective. A lot of armies had these options before, they just got THAT much more powerful. (Note: it doesn't take much of a player to run that either. Point Storm raven at vehicle/target, kill vehicle/target, rinse and repeat for the first couple turns cause they can't touch you.)
Fortifications are a joke too. Just putting that out there. super expensive, super easy to deal with, a massive Bane to any army running them IMO. If you could take multiples you could at least attempt to play a backfield style list, but meh.
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Post by blodgetter on Jul 30, 2012 15:30:13 GMT -5
Jeremy: but where does it say that fast skimmers can't have skyfire?
Though I can appreciate your concern over vendettas being powerful, and how hard any flyer will be for some current codecs to deal with, I assure you this won't be a concern as far as other lists go.
From a logistics standpoint remember that they gain skyfire as a result of "sofisticated targeting systems" which allows them too track a target at high speed. Those don't just stop working because it's hovering, and really wouldent it be easier too hit a moving target when you moving more slowly then when you rocketing at high speeds as well?
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Post by ross on Jul 30, 2012 15:41:50 GMT -5
I disagree with Chris and Mark on this - It is my opinion that the phrase "treated exactly like a fast skimmer" means that for the rest of that turn (while in hover mode) it behaves exactly like a fast skimmer which does not have the benefit of the skyfire rule. But first, I think the real issue is that Poofy is kicking all of our butts with his 3 vendettas. It is a bit of a shock that IG is coming back with some serious butt kicking this edition, but they have had fliers a lot longer than other lists, so I think it seems fair that when fliers get their proper due in 40k that IG comes out on top. The thing that makes the 3 vendettas so effective is that most other armies do not have effective or efficient anti-air capacities. That is a problem with the other lists, to my mind, not the vendettas or the fliers rules. That said, I offer the three arguments below as to why fliers in hover mode don't get skyfire. 1) This explanation seems to make the most logical sense based on what I think they were trying to get at with the new flyer rules. As a flyer you are either zooming (which has new rules) or Hover [if you have the mode] (and that follows the same rules that we know from before) 2) Skyfire is universal special rule that is given to all flyers because of their status as fliers. Since the wording says that you treat the flyer in hover mode exactly as a fast skimmer, you would no longer benefit from the skyfire rule for the rest of that turn. 3) If you look at the formulation of the hover strike rules for the Stormtalon, it allows you to get a bonus to shoot at anything but fast skimmers. I would argue that this was an archaic form of the the skyfire rule and shows the intention of the two modes of flyers. Mode 1) moving fast and hitting other fast skimmer / fliers easily or 2) Hover mode which allows you to hit non fliers more easily, but not fast skimmer / fliers. You're number 2 was my argument on saturday, unfortunately it looks like we'll be arguing this for a long time. |
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Post by blodgetter on Jul 30, 2012 17:30:51 GMT -5
If you tread the entry for the skyfire special rule on page 42: it states a model with this special rule .....
Clearly you do not have too be a flyer too have it.
Page 80-81: simply put their special rules are not a sub category of zoom. No where under zoom, nor the special rules does it stipulate that skyfire works only in zoom mode. Further under hover type: "this makes it more manoeuverable, but often limits the NUMBER of weapons it can fire" it doesn't say anything about how they fire, or that they cease to have their special rules as flyers
Page 83: Fast vehicles describes only how many weapons it can fire, or flat out speed. Bellow that, skimmers has no Referance too it's ability to shoot at all (yet we assume it is still a vehicle and has the ability too do so?) it simple talks about movement, and grants it jink as a special rule.
For the life of me I'm just not seeing anything that supports the idea that it would lose skyfire. Everything I see is prity clear that it should retain it
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Post by ross on Jul 30, 2012 19:37:55 GMT -5
If you tread the entry for the skyfire special rule on page 42: it states a model with this special rule ..... Clearly you do not have too be a flyer too have it. Page 80-81: simply put their special rules are not a sub category of zoom. No where under zoom, nor the special rules does it stipulate that skyfire works only in zoom mode. Further under hover type: "this makes it more manoeuverable, but often limits the NUMBER of weapons it can fire" it doesn't say anything about how they fire, or that they cease to have their special rules as flyers Page 83: Fast vehicles describes only how many weapons it can fire, or flat out speed. Bellow that, skimmers has no Referance too it's ability to shoot at all (yet we assume it is still a vehicle and has the ability too do so?) it simple talks about movement, and grants it jink as a special rule. For the life of me I'm just not seeing anything that supports the idea that it would lose skyfire. Everything I see is prity clear that it should retain it My issue is that you don't have to be a flyer to have skyfire but for now the only things that have sky fire are flyers and those defense turrets. When you hover you become a fast skimmer, and fast skimmers don't have skyfire. |
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Post by blodgetter on Jul 30, 2012 19:50:38 GMT -5
I believe there's two flaws too that line of thinking
1: either you are a flyer, or you are not. You can't cherry pick. If you saying it becomes a skimmer (it is treated as btw, not becomes) then you negate all of the flyer rules, or none of them. Not just the ones you want to.
2: of course fast skimmers don't have skyfire. Otherwise all of them would get it and not just the ones with specialized rules. It no different then Saying jump infantry no longer count as infantry and so can move on foot
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Post by jeremyholiday on Jul 30, 2012 20:13:12 GMT -5
Ross summed it up in his last post.
Re: Bloggetter - I am not saying that fast skimmers can't have skyfire. I am just saying that they don't -- when a flyer is treated exactly like a fast skimmer, it wouldn't have it either.
To be honest, I think we need to come to some conclusion as a group before the tournament if it is going to go smoothly. I wish there were a new 6th ed INAT FAQ that we could use a reference, the net is all over the place with this issue and I don't think we are going to get an FAQ for GW in time for the 11th.
I don't really know the best way to come to a solution for establishing a Triple play answer to this question, but I think it would be best for all if some how it was decided and established before the tournament as opposed to possibly having this argument before each game... and then maybe rolling off.
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Post by neb on Jul 30, 2012 21:25:57 GMT -5
I would like to preface this with the fact that though I indeed do have flyers (and I believe the potential to fit more than any other army?) My flyers are incapable of hover mode and therefore would be harmed by ruling in favor of skyfire.
I agree with Mark on this subject, and here is why (most of this re-wording what has already been said, but I hope in a manor that might help.)
1.) Flyers can chose at the beginning of their turn to Skyfire or ground fire.
2.) A Flyer is still a flyer type even when it's hovering. It's just being 'treated' as a fast skimmer.
3.) no-where in the rules does it state that fast skimmers do not or cannot sky-fire.
That third one is the most important. I feel the fact that it is treated as a skimmer has been the primary argument against skyfire, but no-where in the rules does it actually state skimmers/fast skimmers cannot or don't skyfire. It's in the weapon profile (or in the case of flyers the vehicle type) that gives them the ability to sky-fire.
Being a flyer grants the privelage of being able to skyfire
Being a skimmer has no rule-written restrictions to sky-fire. There just haven't been any codex entries for skimmers with the ability, I am more than sure we'll see a few out of tau though.
Hovering is still a bane though as it opens you up as a nice juicy target to all those ground troops you've been pissing off the whole game.
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Post by discordian on Jul 30, 2012 22:20:02 GMT -5
If a flyer chooses to hover it is treated as skimmer, this changes its movement and the number of weapons it has. Full Stop. It doesn't say it loses all rules it had. Otherwise something dumb would happen.
So a flyer that chooses to be a skimmer now counts as a skimmer. At the beginning of the next turn it would be a skimmer right? Guess what skimmers don't have the option to do? Pick what movements its allowed to use. The second paragraph of the hover rule says that a flyer with hover must declare if its going to zoom or hover at the beginning of the turn. This says its always a flyer even if it chooses to hover, when it hovers it becomes limited to the skimmer rules for its interactions.
These limited interactions don't have anything with flyer rules like skyfire because they have nothing to do with what your trying to claim it does. Otherwise flyers that can hover can never fly again if they hover. If any "OFFICIAL" GW FAQ says otherwise ill change my mind. But not because of anything anyone has said so far.
P.S. Flyers are unfair,the whole mechanic was shoe horned into a system that wasn't updated for it yet. But I'm trying real hard not hinge off of GWs bad grammar statements in attempts to balance because I don't like somethings.
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Post by jeremyholiday on Jul 30, 2012 22:54:45 GMT -5
I think there is enough debate about the issue that a clear standard needs to be established before the next tournament. How should we go about doing it? Well, I propose since Drew is tournament director and has been for a bit now, that he could make a ruling on the issue. This then would be the way it would be for this tournament and others going forward unless something changes.
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Post by hardihar on Jul 31, 2012 6:46:41 GMT -5
just my opinion, but of course they retain skyfire when hovering.
and secondly trying to shoe horn flyers into a small area tactical game is just a mistake for game play anyway. They should have been at best an off board random asset, mostly beyond the control of the player. At least with this edition you are seeing the vehicles start to blow up like they shoud.
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Post by droofus on Jul 31, 2012 8:17:06 GMT -5
If you tread the entry for the skyfire special rule on page 42: it states a model with this special rule ..... Clearly you do not have too be a flyer too have it. Page 80-81: simply put their special rules are not a sub category of zoom. No where under zoom, nor the special rules does it stipulate that skyfire works only in zoom mode. Further under hover type: "this makes it more manoeuverable, but often limits the NUMBER of weapons it can fire" it doesn't say anything about how they fire, or that they cease to have their special rules as flyers Page 83: Fast vehicles describes only how many weapons it can fire, or flat out speed. Bellow that, skimmers has no Referance too it's ability to shoot at all (yet we assume it is still a vehicle and has the ability too do so?) it simple talks about movement, and grants it jink as a special rule. For the life of me I'm just not seeing anything that supports the idea that it would lose skyfire. Everything I see is prity clear that it should retain it My issue is that you don't have to be a flyer to have skyfire but for now the only things that have sky fire are flyers and those defense turrets. When you hover you become a fast skimmer, and fast skimmers don't have skyfire. Fast Skimmers also don't have zoom, so to have this argument work, such a vehicle would never be able to change back from hover to zoom, since the moment it begins to hover it is from thenceforth ONLY a fast skimmer (according to the argument). So I believe if you accept the premise that hovering fliers can switch back to zooming, you are accepting that they retain some "flyer' characteristics while being treated "exactly" as a fast skimmer. Skyfire should be one of these characteristics. TL/DR they retain skyfire while hovering since they retain other flyer characteristics. |
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