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Post by droofus on May 15, 2012 20:57:37 GMT -5
Two words: Infinite Trees.
Therefore TLOS is the lesser of two evils.
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Post by jeremyholiday on May 15, 2012 21:14:19 GMT -5
Ross (et. al),
Is that stuff I have been seeing on the internet really true... some of that doody is crazy.
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Post by ross on May 16, 2012 6:19:05 GMT -5
Two words: Infinite Trees. Therefore TLOS is the lesser of two evils. Not true, I'd rather have a defined set of rules as to what it means to be in cover or in LOS than to waste time arguing over it every game. It ruined my Adepticon experience completely. The other system has flaws too, specifically things that don't make sense like infinite trees or a massive beast getting cover because he's behind a wall that only goes up to his ankles, but things are better when they aren't vague and up to the players to decide. |
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Post by ross on May 16, 2012 6:20:59 GMT -5
Ross (et. al), Is that stuff I have been seeing on the internet really true... some of that doody is crazy. The only thing that is for sure is that the game is getting a complete overhaul, so while the things that you have read may very well be true - the details of the overhaul have not been confirmed, only that the overhaul is happening. |
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Post by droofus on May 16, 2012 7:46:57 GMT -5
Two words: Infinite Trees. Therefore TLOS is the lesser of two evils. Not true, I'd rather have a defined set of rules as to what it means to be in cover or in LOS than to waste time arguing over it every game. It ruined my Adepticon experience completely. The other system has flaws too, specifically things that don't make sense like infinite trees or a massive beast getting cover because he's behind a wall that only goes up to his ankles, but things are better when they aren't vague and up to the players to decide. In my experience most of the people I've had TLOS disputes with are people who are still mad about TLOS existing in the first place. Everyone else it seems to flow smoothly enough. A simple "come over to my side of table and look at it from a minis eye view" seems to solve most problems. That or the application of a cover save. What's more, because of the slam dunk methods of making units invisible that existed in 4th shooting was completely useless as a mechanic back then, to the point where I was wishing my guardsmen could take close combat weapons and pistols. Shooting is still inferior to close combat in terms of importance to the game, but the gap has narrowed. Mostly that narrowing is thanks to TLOS. I do think that in cases where you are firing through multiple pieces of area terrain your opponent should be able to claim a 3+ cover save to represent the difficulty of the shot. |
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Post by discordian on May 16, 2012 8:38:20 GMT -5
Then better terrain needs to be consistently used. TLOS only works for me if there are actually situations where you can't be fried upon or firing lanes and choke points actually exist. Right now it only serves to penalize armies that shoot but can't spam shooting or durability.
Right now, with a few exceptions, the game is powered by mass dice rolls. The newer armies that can spam tons of high str/rate of fire guns don't even care about the cover system. Every 5th edition book has gone this route and is now become the way to win. Which is why all the nation wide tournaments have devolved into a bunch of spamfest that field a bunch of the same builds, full of melta hunters or whatever cool name equivalents they like to come up with to make themselves feel like they are playing something special.
About the rules overhaul coming. I'd wait until next month and if you see a bunch of wonderful flyer rules popping up in the next white dwarf you can start to believe the stuff that's supposedly coming out in July.
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Post by jeremyholiday on May 16, 2012 12:46:34 GMT -5
I have only been playing since TLOS was the norm and I like it. The issue about certain builds winning is not all that important to me as I don't do any of the national tournaments. The only army I have had any success with was a shooty army which I did not design as spam.... though the term can be subjective. To be honest, I often like imbalance in the game design... I really do not enjoy games with excessive balancing a la Blizzards stuff... I like the idea of taking a weaker list for the challenge and trying to beat stronger lists. One of my favorite games growing up was ogre / gev which is a game with a HUGE imbalance... its part of the fun. Anyway, on my original point about TLOS, I agree with Drew that it works for me and I can't really imagine another way of doing it that does not at least a little reach in to the realm of absurdity.
And while I'm on it, I like a little randomness and uniqueness to each game... again, it is part of the fun.
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Post by ross on May 16, 2012 16:27:29 GMT -5
Not true, I'd rather have a defined set of rules as to what it means to be in cover or in LOS than to waste time arguing over it every game. It ruined my Adepticon experience completely. The other system has flaws too, specifically things that don't make sense like infinite trees or a massive beast getting cover because he's behind a wall that only goes up to his ankles, but things are better when they aren't vague and up to the players to decide. In my experience most of the people I've had TLOS disputes with are people who are still mad about TLOS existing in the first place. Everyone else it seems to flow smoothly enough. A simple "come over to my side of table and look at it from a minis eye view" seems to solve most problems. That or the application of a cover save. What's more, because of the slam dunk methods of making units invisible that existed in 4th shooting was completely useless as a mechanic back then, to the point where I was wishing my guardsmen could take close combat weapons and pistols. Shooting is still inferior to close combat in terms of importance to the game, but the gap has narrowed. Mostly that narrowing is thanks to TLOS. I do think that in cases where you are firing through multiple pieces of area terrain your opponent should be able to claim a 3+ cover save to represent the difficulty of the shot. From what I have seen, I think 6th ed is going to make shooting more important than close combat, they are switching back to vps so to compensate for the low price vehicles, they are making them super easy to destroy. If the new charge system is true then it will much harder to move/assault. |
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