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Post by shoey109 on Jul 4, 2011 10:17:38 GMT -5
I suggest that time the turns. That way we can get more turns in and spend less time debating a debate and questioning questions. Anyone have a chess clock? Jeremy, I agree with you on timed turns. I have a chess clock. I will have to find it. It was my dad's clock. Will |
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Post by kv1e on Jul 4, 2011 15:24:22 GMT -5
who else is looking to step up and play germans? s German: committed; o' Steve, Jeremy possible Will Unknown BRAD Allies commited Temis, O'Mike, Chris, Your friend from Bennington?, N' Steve Unknown N'Mike I dislike the idea of timed moves In the beach scenario The allies have almost double the numbers of the Germans. Further the Germans(as they did in the big push) on the whole have little to do except to fire. Will and I tried the scenaio a couple of weeks ago and Will did little movement other than some halftracks and a couple of Reninforceing ACs Sorry to quote my own message but it seems to me we have an unexpected problem(not a bad one). As of right now we have to many players. Germans: O'Steve, Jeremy, Will, and Son, and Brad(N'Steve is sure that he will make it) Allies:N' Steve, Temis, Chris, Steve's comrade from Bennington, Mike Burton, and N'Mike Oh yes and possably Aron We have 6 players for the allies and 5 for the Germans. What are we going to do? We counld try a teams but on the whole I have found that playing games like that does not work out well(generly either one person dominates his team and his teammate has little to do or they quarrell and their command is less effective). We could consider turning the beach tables length wise so they are form one 12'x4' table. thus there will be 3 4'x4' tables (have to mark the edges) because the beaches will assume to be seperated(as in N'Steves scenario) The back two feet of the if and when troops get there we can use one of the folding tables. Thus we will have 5 tables and room in the game for 10 players. I do want to voice my objections to the idea of timeing the moves. FOW is not chess, a lot more things to move. This scenario should have lots of infantry, a couple of protraced Infantry assaults can tie up a lot of time and Infantry is by its nature more time consuming to move. Further I think it favors the Germans because the beach deffender will have a lot less troops to move(assuming they need to move them at all} . The allies will need to keep moving (since somethinks we should be able to exit to board.) I think we will have a better game if it is a well thought out played game rather than a game in which we manage to cram the maximum number of turns inFurther I would suggest that everyone read every thing in Das bookin the invasion scenario not just senario itself. There is a lot of stuff there that effects the scenaio. some samples The Germans get 40 points to fortify the beach only 1/2 of those can be used to buy bunkers page 34 das book Offshore artillery can not fire smoke nor can it use all guns repeat Naval Artillery gets an AOP that is a flying tank and can not be shot at by light AA Guns oops a slight mistake in the above American AOPs can be shot at by all the AA guns however they used mustangs and thus count as flying tanks because they flew so high |
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Post by Easy86 on Jul 13, 2011 12:45:44 GMT -5
Hello Everyone!
After speaking with some of you I have some updates:
The Game:
We will keep our table layout as designed: Two rear tables with 4 ft edges adjacent, and two front tables with the 4 ft edge adjoining the 6 ft edge of the back tables.
Forward tables will use the hit the beach scenario as written in Das Book with no changes
Back tables will use the Sieze and Hold airborne assault mission as laid out in Das Book with no changes.
Special Rules for our scenario (in addition to those in das book):
Due to the night rules associated with seize and hold, no tables can be crossed by either force until daylight breaks (this means at least no sooner than turn 3). IE if it is turn 5 and it is still "night" on the back tables, then you can not move from the back table to the front table, or from the front to the back. (read the night rules in das book for details on daylight breaking).
Tables can only be crossed on routes dictated by the game masters (bridges/roads) to simulate the restricted areas (flooded fields/minefields, raised roads) behind the coastal defenses.
Points/Tables/Players
US Beach Assault (1750): New Steve
British Beach Assault (1750): Temis
US Airborne (1750): Chris Root
British Airborne (1750): Old Mike
(we will need something to use as gliders for the airborne missions)
German Beach Defense 1 (1000): Jeremy
German Beach Defense 2 (1000): Old Steve
German Back Table 1 (1750): Will
German Back Table 2 (1750): Mars (New Steve's friend from bennington)
If Additional players do arrive (more than the 8 required) then the game masters will make a field decision regarding additional tables etc.
New Mike and Will: Will if your son would like to play (and we encourage him to do so) and New Mike (hay Bale): if you all show up we will see what we can do to incorporate you into the game, most likely using an additional table.
Army Restrictions:
No German Armor Companies as primary armies as there were none on active alerts in the immediate invasion area, the 21st panzer was held in reserve and could only be released by hitler.
No allied armor companies as primary armies as no armored division assaulted the beach in the first waves of the assaults.
ALL allied and german forces must be western europe based for the invasion. This means that no allied late way forces from italy and no german late war forces from italy or russia. As these forces were no around for the invasion.
Scoring:
Scoring will be based on the number of objectives held at the end of the game, who ever holds the most objectives at the end of the game wins.
Game Play Schedule:
0900 Arrive to put your armies together, german players please arrive NLT than 0900 so you have time to choose and place your coastal defenses
Play will Start at 10 AM Sharp, if you are late we wont wait.
Play will continue from 10 AM to NOON
Lunch Break from Noon to 1 PM
Play will Start again at 1 PM Sharp
Play will continue from 1 PM to 5 PM
Dinner Break from 5 PM to 6 PM
Play will Start at 6 PM Sharp
Play will continue from 6 PM to 8 PM
Play will End at 8 PM and a winner will be declared
Jeremy has already given us the OK to play from 9 am to 9 pm. This will give us ample time to play out a good game. Other d-day scenarios like this one (such as the one in the d-day issue of wargaming illustrated) they have taken 2 days to play out the game.
30 minute turns will be used for guidance, we understand there are a lot of pieces to move and that questions will turn up, but given the format (every attempt being made to have 1 on 1 games going on simultaneously) turns should be able to be kept to near 30 or less minutes. The short answer: DONT TAKE 1 HOUR TURNS. We are not looking to hurry people up, we are just looking to get the most out of our game, as this is a game we want to do for fun and only do once a year. I know that i Have a tendency to take longer turns cause i think too much, So i will be working extra hard to speed up my turns.
This should clear up most of the issues that we have discussed. I will try to find a way to include additional people if they show up however I don't want us as a group of players to get overwhelmed and burn ourselves out trying to make everyone happy because after that its not fun and that defeats the whole purpose.
Please post if you have any other questions or comments. I would like to make a final post in a new thread with our final agreement for the game this coming sunday, so people dont have to wade through the whole thread.
Thanks everyone Your input has really helped alot and I think that this game is going to be a lot of fun for all of us!!!
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Post by kv1e on Jul 13, 2011 22:01:25 GMT -5
Questions? questions? questions?
If the airborne boards start at night does that mean that the beach boards do to? or will they be assumed to be a couple of turns behind?
Can allied airborne companies use all the units Availabe to them in the D minus one book ?. You should be aware that those lists include things like tank platoons and tank destroyer platoons that the allies could not drop or land by glider but were attached to the division after the drop when airborne division fought as regular Infanty once they linked up with the beach forces.
Can forces on one board shot from one board to the another assuming they have the range?
Can artillery on one boad bombard to another to another Naval gunfire for example has a range of 112"?
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Post by Easy86 on Jul 14, 2011 8:01:35 GMT -5
Questions? questions? questions? If the airborne boards start at night does that mean that the beach boards do to? or will they be assumed to be a couple of turns behind? Can allied airborne companies use all the units Availabe to them in the D minus one book ?. You should be aware that those lists include things like tank platoons and tank destroyer platoons that the allies could not drop or land by glider but were attached to the division after the drop when airborne division fought as regular Infanty once they linked up with the beach forces. Can forces on one board shot from one board to the another assuming they have the range? Can artillery on one boad bombard to another to another Naval gunfire for example has a range of 112"? Those are good questions temis: all of the games will start at the same time. Which brought up the problems of crossing the tables by forces and then the night rules. so to keep things simple a decision was made that the back tables would play at night as per there mission and the front tables would play at day as per there mission (think of it like the allies attacking at dawn) Then when day breaks on the back table (germans roll for daylight the same way they roll for delayed reserves get one die looking for 5+ on turn 3, then two dice on turn 4 etc...). This solves both of the issues that have been brought up, adds an interesting dynamic, and kind of takes care of a rift in the time line lol. The same goes for your question about shooting across tables. there is no reason that you shouldnt be able too, we have played the same way in all of our megabattles. You can shoot across tables when day breaks. Regarding bombardment: yes you can bombard across tables, same regarding night applies, if it is night on the back tables then your spotters cant see on the back tables. Regarding the armies. I think you would be best to go to the FoW forums for that answer. I do not have a problem with that but i would think that they still need to follow the rules laid out in the sieze and hold mission, if those dont say you that you can not take them, then i dont see why not. but that would be up to those people playing those armies too. they have to make a decision based on their mission. the only thing that will happen in this game that didnt in real life is that no one except for the game masters will know the terrain until the day of the game. (the GM's will be setting up the table the day of). any other questions, comments or concerns??? |
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Post by FaithandFire on Jul 14, 2011 10:05:49 GMT -5
I think the Seize and Hold mission does limit the para forces that can be in the mix to just those which can be parachuted or glidered in. Refer to Das Book, page 20, I think.
It would seem best to limit the German players to just Infantry companies, preferably from a Western Europe late war book. Not everyone has Fire and Steel but that would be a good source for a German force.
People should read the scenarios from Das Book!! There is an incorrect page number reference on page 34 for the fortification rules. It refers to page 47 and I think that reference should be to page 56.
I think a game this size needs someone to GM who is not playing so I will volunteer to do that. I will still bring a German beach defense force just in case but will plan on not playing. That will open up some room for an additional player.
It would be good to get some confirmation from everyone. I have not heard recently from Chris although he seemed very interested when mentioned to him weeks ago. I have not heard anything from New Mike or from Brad. Has anyone else heard from any of them? Maybe they will read this and respond.
I am not overly excited about the length event - but, in for a penny, in for a pound I guess.
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Post by heybale on Jul 14, 2011 10:34:33 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I thought the event was booked full. I could help GM it if needed although I'm not sure I'd be up for 12 hrs of GM'ing. But the wife may be out o' town in which case I'd be up for 24 hours of GM'ing or anything really.
I would strongly recommend timed turns and less than 30 minutes. This kind of game has great potential for fun but also can be excruciating if you're waiting on a single player. Best to recognize that this is a fun spectacle rather than a precise and even matchup and just keep it fast and upbeat is my take.
Mike
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Post by kv1e on Jul 14, 2011 21:37:38 GMT -5
Questions? questions? questions? If the airborne boards start at night does that mean that the beach boards do to? or will they be assumed to be a couple of turns behind? Can allied airborne companies use all the units Availabe to them in the D minus one book ?. You should be aware that those lists include things like tank platoons and tank destroyer platoons that the allies could not drop or land by glider but were attached to the division after the drop when airborne division fought as regular Infanty once they linked up with the beach forces. Can forces on one board shot from one board to the another assuming they have the range? Can artillery on one boad bombard to another to another Naval gunfire for example has a range of 112"? Those are good questions temis: all of the games will start at the same time. Which brought up the problems of crossing the tables by forces and then the night rules. so to keep things simple a decision was made that the back tables would play at night as per there mission and the front tables would play at day as per there mission (think of it like the allies attacking at dawn) Then when day breaks on the back table (germans roll for daylight the same way they roll for delayed reserves get one die looking for 5+ on turn 3, then two dice on turn 4 etc...). This solves both of the issues that have been brought up, adds an interesting dynamic, and kind of takes care of a rift in the time line lol. The same goes for your question about shooting across tables. there is no reason that you shouldnt be able too, we have played the same way in all of our megabattles. You can shoot across tables when day breaks. Regarding bombardment: yes you can bombard across tables, same regarding night applies, if it is night on the back tables then your spotters cant see on the back tables. Regarding the armies. I think you would be best to go to the FoW forums for that answer. I do not have a problem with that but i would think that they still need to follow the rules laid out in the sieze and hold mission, if those dont say you that you can not take them, then i dont see why not. but that would be up to those people playing those armies too. they have to make a decision based on their mission. the only thing that will happen in this game that didnt in real life is that no one except for the game masters will know the terrain until the day of the game. (the GM's will be setting up the table the day of). any other questions, comments or concerns??? You are wrong about the way that night ends see page 60 d minus one and/or page 171 Hardcover rule book. at the start of defenders turn in turn 3 the defender rolls a single die if he rolls 1 die if he rolls 5+ night ends, if not at the start of turn 4 the attacker rolls 2 die needing 5+ to end night, if he fails then the defender rolls 3 die at the start of his turn 4 and so on with each player rolling one more die then the roll before till someone rolls a 5+. You are incorrect about spot not being able to see. Allied naval gunfire has an AOP which could move to other table to spot if need be. German spotters on the beach board can spot for Artillery on para table, and para spotters on the para table can spot for artillery on the beach table. Unless you are going to restrict spotters to units of their same command? O'Steve is correct the rules limiting what the Airborne companys can drop(use) is on page 20 of Das Book. Lastly I warn you that allowing the Germans to Reinforce the Beach(even on turn 3) is likely to unbalance the scenario in the Germans favor. The playtesting that we have done shows that the scenaio hit the beach is pretty well balanced. Jeremy defeated Will's Germans because Will set up to close to the beach and took early assaults and died. I on the other hand lande with rather light casulties and got most of my troops ashore but came no where close to the objective and lost. Part of the balance of the scenario is that it is dangerous for the Germans to deploy Artillery and tanks becasue they are most vulnerbale to the peliminary bombardment and reinforcements are difficult to bring in. Now with one stroke you have provided the Germans with the ability to get Reinforcements easily. I fear that if the Germans choose to they may be able to disrupt the beach scenarios very easily when they want to(they can, if they want to, simply park their Artilllery on the edge of their table and fire bombarment on to the Beach table). This is a modification of the scenario in a major way. |
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Post by kv1e on Jul 15, 2011 8:22:22 GMT -5
I think the Seize and Hold mission does limit the para forces that can be in the mix to just those which can be parachuted or glidered in. Refer to Das Book, page 20, I think. It would seem best to limit the German players to just Infantry companies, preferably from a Western Europe late war book. Not everyone has Fire and Steel but that would be a good source for a German force. People should read the scenarios from Das Book!! There is an incorrect page number reference on page 34 for the fortification rules. It refers to page 47 and I think that reference should be to page 56. I think a game this size needs someone to GM who is not playing so I will volunteer to do that. I will still bring a German beach defense force just in case but will plan on not playing. That will open up some room for an additional player. It would be good to get some confirmation from everyone. I have not heard recently from Chris although he seemed very interested when mentioned to him weeks ago. I have not heard anything from New Mike or from Brad. Has anyone else heard from any of them? Maybe they will read this and respond. I am not overly excited about the length event - but, in for a penny, in for a pound I guess. O'Steve are you limiting German forces to Infantry companies or are you suggesting it? Right now according to N'Steve the only thing that German players can not use is a tank company. |
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Post by FaithandFire on Jul 16, 2011 18:19:10 GMT -5
Well, I have not discussed it directly with N'Steve who is playing the lead role in this but I do think it is historically more accurate. I am talking about the possibility of limiting the Germans to infantry companies.
I did see Chris today and he is planning on running the 82nd Airborne company that Jeremy is so kindly providing.
By the way, I will not have internet access until July 24th so not to wonder if I don't respond to anything.
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Post by jeremy3play on Jul 17, 2011 0:28:30 GMT -5
I would also have to say for the Airborne forces on the sieze and hold tables no armor unless it is able to be brought in by glider. Let's try to make our lists as accurate as possible and avoid the overall gaminess of it.
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Post by FaithandFire on Jul 17, 2011 6:47:38 GMT -5
Jeremy - The seize and hold scenario limits the allied force to those support units which have Parachute, Glider, or Airlanding in the title. I don't have the allied books but I assume that accomplishes what you are suggesting.
No winged Shermans decending from above deus ex machina. Just like the Germans having a platoon of Panthers stationed under every bridge in Normandy.
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Post by jeremy3play on Jul 17, 2011 16:03:37 GMT -5
Exactly!! I would also say armored platoons at all for the Germans on the beach table as they were not there. Now to make a para list for Chris....who knew I'd be plotting against myself!
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Post by kv1e on Jul 17, 2011 20:05:56 GMT -5
Jeremy - The seize and hold scenario limits the allied force to those support units which have Parachute, Glider, or Airlanding in the title. I don't have the allied books but I assume that accomplishes what you are suggesting. No winged Shermans decending from above deus ex machina. Just like the Germans having a platoon of Panthers stationed under every bridge in Normandy. No need to worry the only armored vehicles that are allowed the airborne forces are one platoon of Tetarchs(Mike owns one platoon). 20 of them were brought in by Glider in the allied drop. However while you can take the Tank company out of the Game you can not take tanks out of the infantry Company For example A German Panzer Grenaider Konpanie(thats with trucks for the Infantry not halftracks) from Fortress Europe counts as an Infantry company It can have a platoon of Tanks or tigers, an assault gun platoon brumbars or Stug Gs, a platoon of mechanized infantry, acouple of aa platoons on armord platoons and platoon panzer IIs. In short you can create a pretty impressive armored company within an Infantry company A regular Infantry company lacks some of the above but not the core units. Even worse is an SS panzer grenadier co (page 20 Cobra) An Infantry Company it can have 1 tiger platoon, and 2 panzer platoons. |
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Post by shoey109 on Jul 18, 2011 14:14:51 GMT -5
I plan on playing a German Infantry company with allot of machine guns.
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